What happens when conflict between doctors and nurses turns deadly, not just for patients, but for the entire healthcare team? In this powerful bonus episode, Dr. Lee Sharma and longtime colleague Heather Packer dive deep into the controversial Lucy Letby case. They explore how staffing shortages, poor teamwork, fear of speaking up, and doctor-nurse tension may have led to tragic infant deaths and one nurse potentially serving life in prison for crimes she may not have committed.
You've heard how conflict in healthcare causes burnout and poor patient care, but what if it could send someone to prison for multiple life sentences?
In this gripping episode of the Scalpel and Sword Podcast, host Dr. Lee Sharma sits down with Heather Packer to examine the Lucy Letby case. What began as a spike in neonatal deaths at the Countess of Chester Hospital quickly turned into accusations against one hardworking nurse.
They unpack the toxic dynamics between doctors and nurses, the ignored external report highlighting severe staffing and oversight failures, how Lucy’s keycard data and personal journals were used against her, the questionable expert witness, and the shocking new evidence from neonatologist Dr. Shoo Lee and 14 international colleagues who reviewed the cases for free and concluded: no murders occurred — only bad teamwork and substandard care.
This episode is a sobering look at what happens when healthcare teams fail to communicate, take ownership, and work together, and a powerful reminder of why accountability and trust matter more than ever.
Three Actionable Takeaways:
About the Show:
Behind every procedure, every patient encounter, lies an untold story of conflict and negotiation. Scalpel and Sword, hosted by Dr. Lee Sharma—physician, mediator, and guide—invites listeners into the unseen battles and breakthroughs of modern medicine. With real conversations, human stories, and practical tools, this podcast empowers physicians to reclaim their voices, sharpen their skills, and wield their healing power with both precision and purpose.
About the Guest:
Heather Packer is a dedicated healthcare professional with over 20 years of experience. A graduate of Auburn University with a degree in criminal justice, she is known and loved by her patients and colleagues for her compassion and hard work. Heather is also a passionate true crime enthusiast who loves diving deep into complex cases with Dr. Lee Sharma.
About the Host:
Dr. Lee Sharma is a gynecologist based in Auburn, AL, with over 30 years of clinical experience. She holds a Master’s in Conflict Resolution and is passionate about helping colleagues navigate workplace challenges and thrive through open conversations and practical tools.
[00:00:00] Hello, my peaceful warriors and welcome to the Scalpel and Sword Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, and I'm gonna ask you a question. You've heard stories about doctors, nurses, healthcare professionals getting into conflict, and we know it causes burnout. We know it produces stress.
We know it affects patient care, but have we ever looked at a case where potentially these conflicts put somebody in jail for multiple life sentences? And we're gonna look at that today. And I'm so excited to have on the podcast, Heather Packer Heather is a graduate of Auburn University with a degree in criminal justice.
She has had a 20 plus career in healthcare. She is beloved by her patients and her coworkers. And I can say that because I have had the honor of being her coworker for 20 plus years. So, Heather, welcome Thank you for having me
Okay, feel like we've talked about true crime forever. Yes. But like the first time I really remember you, like in the rabbit hole mm-hmm. Was Chris wats. Yep. [00:01:00] Yes. Tell us about like why that case sucked you in. 'cause you were in Facebook groups, you were an active commenter.
What about that case? Really drew you? I don't know. I think it's because I was close to the wife's age Uhhuh and I had girls and they had little girls and I just remember getting ready for work one morning and them talking about a pregnant woman missing, and it immediately caught my attention and I was hooked.
Wow. I watched his interview on their front porch and. You could just see that he was guilty. Yeah. Yeah. the way his mannerisms everything, and my brain just cannot comprehend somebody doing that to their own. Yeah. It's evil. Yeah. And I don't know, I was just took on it. Yeah. And I think.
You were also like as the case was developing? Yes. Like I think that was the other thing. Mm-hmm. Is this was one of those cases that definitely was happening in real time. Yes. And I remember you following it. like as the case was progressing and as they were collecting evidence and mm-hmm.
you had that gut filtering that he was guilty, but then they got the evidence. Yes. [00:02:00] Yeah. He was trying to blame her. And Yeah it's crazy right though, that he was trying to blame her for something that he totally was having an affair and doing all this other stuff. Mm-hmm. But he was still trying to blame her for that.
I kind of think this concept of blame. Is gonna play really hard into the story that we're about to tell today. And what we're talking about today, peaceful Warriors on the podcast is the case of Lucy Luby. Now, I'm gonna go ahead and preface this by saying I don't anticipate that we'll answer the question today of whether or not she's innocent or guilty.
I don't know that you and I are gonna answer that question. Yeah. I think the. Interwebs have strong opinions, but I think one of the reasons I wanted to get into this on the podcast today, over and above the fact that we both love true crime, and this is something that we are both very interested in.
Yes, as a genre on podcasts, I listen to a lot of True Crime podcasts, but also the fact that I really do think that the conflict between the [00:03:00] doctors and the nurses really. Was such a significant part of why this person's in jail right now. And that's the reason why I want to tell this story. and for those of you that are into this case that have researched it, that have read about it, I'm probably gonna get some things different or wrong and I apologize.
Please let me know if I'm not telling the story right. But I'm gonna try to stay as true to this timeline as possible and as much as I can try to include. Everything. I'm not trying to tell a story that's one sided I wanna tell the story. Absolutely. Okay, so to tell the story, we have to kind of go all the way back to June of 2015, and this was at a point in time at a hospital in Wales called the Cales of Chester Hospital, had a neonatal intensive care unit, had a nicu, and they were taking care of sick babies.
So these were premature infants. Under 32 weeks. So these are sick kids. Yes. And they're already very frail. They have a lot of other health issues just due to being premature. Yeah. In the uk and I kind of use some of these terms so that we kind of know, 'cause in the US it's kind of hard for [00:04:00] us.
Yes. They don't call them like attending doctors or attending physicians, like we call them. They call them consultants. Okay. So the consultants are kind of the top tier. Okay. And then underneath that they have the junior doctors, which. Are probably out of residency for a few years. Okay. So it's not quite the same as doctors in training, like when we're a residency.
Yeah. And then below that they have residents and then medical students. Okay. So at the Countess of Chester Hospital in 2015, they started noticing a spike in the level of infant deaths. So this trucking along and all of a sudden we've got this dramatic spike now. To be fair, the National healthcare system in the uk, those doctors are stretched.
We think we're stretching the United States and we are, but they are super stretched. So these are pediatricians running back and forth. From taking care of kids in the pediatric unit and in the wards to the nicu. So they're running back and forth. Okay. So they're starting to see an increase in these deaths.
And so after the third [00:05:00] unexpected baby death. Yeah. One of the attendings, and his name is Dr. Gibbs emails, his friends, his other senior doctors, and says, I think we have a problem. one of the babies had a strange rash. Okay. When it passed, and it's like the nurses on the unit were also very worried.
So he is now sounding an alarm. Okay. Something is going on and we don't know what it is, but we have a problem. So the question then becomes. What's causing the spike? So they're trying to answer this question now in terms of answering this question in February, 2016. Okay. They did ask a specialist, a neonatologist from another hospital, okay.
Also in England, to look at these charts. What she found was that they, the staffing levels, so the doctors there was inadequate for the level of sick babies that they had, that the [00:06:00] oversight for those doctors was limited. In other words, they have doctors taking care of babies that maybe shouldn't be doing that level of care yet.
And that the senior doctors now, the consultants, like we talked about. Yeah. The attendings. Normally you see these sick babies twice a day. Yeah. They were seeing 'em twice a week. Okay. I just got pills. so these are not the senior people. Okay? These are people that maybe haven't been out of residency for a while.
So normally what should happen, right, is these junior doctors should be calling the upper levels, right? They were scared, they didn't wanna call. they're, I'm gonna get yelled at if I call, so I'm not gonna call. Right? And so because of this neonatologist says, well, the reason why you've got babies dying is you don't have qualified doctors.
You don't have doctors that have the appropriate training and oversight taking care of these doctors, and you're only seeing the babies twice a week. Yeah. Right? Yeah. That report was never given to Lucy. Let BE'S jury, so they have this information right. So they know that we've got a conflict [00:07:00] going on in this hospital where the doctors aren't seeing the patients.
The junior doctors are scared to call the upper levels, and you don't have the right number of staff. You don't even have the right number of people that you need to see these. So this report gets sent back to the hospital now in February of 2016, the nurses start telling the doctors you have a problem, and the doctor starts saying.
We think it's Lucy Luby. Okay. Now let's take a second to talk about how we got to, we think it's Lucy Luby. Okay. Because this is a story. Okay. So Lucy Luby is this extremely hardworking nurse. She's there a lot Now, she's in her twenties and she's single. So I mean, she's not married. She doesn't have kids.
Right. So this is her thing. Yeah. What they did. Is you know how you key card doors? Yes. Okay. They took the key card door data and they started trying to match it up to [00:08:00] you, the babies that were sick and dying. So in total, for these two years, She was 15 in 2017 . 61 babies, 61 had suspicious deaths or injuries. They could match up 25. To Lucy let these door scan and now they're even saying in hindsight Yeah, that the door scan's not accurate, that the door scan was faulty. So just 'cause somebody key card. Yeah. It doesn't mean that they were actually there.
That's insane. Okay, so they're trying to look at all of this, right? Right. In the midst of this, she gets pulled in by the police once. Okay. Because they're saying, you know, there was suspicion about you killing babies. And she's like , I didn't do it . I don't know what you're talking about. I'm innocent.
But they keep her, they question her. I think she actually stays like in jail. Does she have a lawyer with her? Not then. Okay. The second time she does. Okay. But not then. Okay. so she's being accused of doing all this, And in fact. After this episode where she [00:09:00] gets arrested the first time?
Yeah. That hospital actually asked those doctors to give her a written apology. It's like they had to go to mediation with her. They had to apologize to her for what they were accusing her of. 'cause there was no evidence of it. Right. So she had been through all this before the second. Okay. And also
I wanna talk about this. You think about someone who's being thrown in jail or being questioned for something that they didn't do. Mm-hmm. They're telling you they didn't do it right? Yep. And I mean, whether you believe it or not, she's saying she didn't do it. Okay. Then you have her go through counseling and the counselor has her journal.
Right? Mm-hmm. Have you ever journaled? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yes. You put stuff in your journal that you know and mean, and we all battle those evil thoughts. We all do. So you're putting stuff in your journal it gets on your soul, it's going in your journal, right? Absolutely. So if you are really so into this whole work that you do, that you're blaming yourself for this process, I'm evil, I did it.
Mm-hmm. They use those journals against [00:10:00] her at trial. Okay. That's why they have lots on journals. Yes. So all of this is going into this story. So we are now asking this person to get help for their demons and for their interpersonal concerns. And we're using the help that we ask them to get against them.
Okay. so we're still on this, right? Now these doctors are emailing and there's a really great British podcast. The host's name is Andy Hale. We'll put it in the show notes. Andy Hale did one of the best podcasts I've heard about this. 'cause again, all the people that are in the United Kingdom, I mean, obviously they've got way more access than we do, so their podcasts are fire.
Andy Hale actually had one of the local attorneys on his show. Who dropped a bunch of unreleased emails from the doctors. Oh girl. Listen to this. Okay. I guess I should go ahead and say, I probably feel like she might be innocent. Same. I should go ahead and say that since I'm trying not to [00:11:00] tell the story that way, but I feel like I kind of am.
So anyway, so the emails from the consultants are going back and forth are how can we get the police involved? Because right now they've got so many deaths. What's starting to happen is the National Health Service, so the national organization over this hospital is wanting to come investigate them.
Mm. So it's like, well, how can we get the police involved? So they're trying to send reports to the police to get the police to come and look at that hospital . Mm-hmm. The first time police say no. we wait. The staff at the hospital are asking the police, not the people over the hospital the doctors.
Are , asking the police to come in because they're suspicious of someone or they want a real answer. they're saying that they want a real answer, but what they're saying is, we're suspicious of Lucy. Okay. So the first time the police say no. Okay. This is all the emails.
Okay. And then they start emailing back and forth. And this is one of the doctors that we talked about that was on the Netflix, the one who's saying that he knew that she did it and all this kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. This is one of the doctors that's on the emails. Okay. And he's on the email chain, and of course he's Indian.
Why? Anyway who starts [00:12:00] saying that? We gotta say something else to get the police to investigate . We got to. So this is where they come up with this idea of like, oh, she's injecting insulin , she's injecting air into these babies. And this is why this question of the rash comes up and we're gonna come back to this later.
Okay. So they're saying because they saw this funny rash. 'cause let's go back to the very first thing we said. This doctor, Dr. Gibbs. Okay. Who says that he emailed his friends because he thought he saw a strange rash on one of the babies before the baby died. Right. Okay. They're saying this rash is consistent with something called an air embolus.
Okay. Where you actually shoot air into the baby's vein and when the baby gets air in the vein, this is what they're saying now. Okay. we're gonna get into this. The air in the baby's vein that's gonna kill the baby. Okay. So they say they have a paper by a doctor named Dr. Shoe Lee.
He's a neonatologist in Canada. Okay. And they have this paper, and this paper says that this rash that these babies have is [00:13:00] absolutely consistent with air embolus. And because of that, this is proof that she murdered these babies. Okay. So the police do investigate that. Okay. So she gets arrested again.
Okay. So the police get a phone call from this guy, he's a pediatrician and his first name is Dewey, and I forget his last name. I have to go back and find his last name. Okay. But he is the main witness for the prosecution. He's a pediatrician. Anyway, so this guy, Dr.
Dewey, was how I call him Dr. Dewey. All right. you know how sometimes I get calls to go do expert witnessing, right? Yeah. Yeah. But they call me, right? Yeah. I don't hear about a case and go call them, right? Dewey hears about this case, and he calls the police and says, I'll be your witness.
I'll review your charts. This is what he does, okay? Now, it's worth noting that Dr. Dewey is not a neonatologist. Mm. He is a pediatrician. Okay. He's a career expert witness, which is always a little sus to [00:14:00] me. Yeah. You know that you'll say anything for a buck for an attorney.
Mm-hmm. That's always a little bothersome. But beyond that, do you know the only real papers he's ever published? What's that? That it's really okay for adults to have sex with minors. What he He's a pedophile. Yeah, he's a pedophile. So
This is the main expert witness for the prosecution. Right. okay. Dr. Dewey says, I'll look at these records for you. And of course the police say, oh my gosh, thank you for your help. Yeah, please come help us. Because they don't know any better that he's,calling them, wanting to come help them with this case, probably calling himself some expert and truthfully told he's done.
Expert witnessing, right? Yeah. But he's not a neonatologist. Okay. and he said this on a podcast now, you know what you say on podcast Lives forever. Right? So he says this on the podcast that it only took him 10 minutes of looking at one case to know that she did it and she murdered those babies.
Yes. Thank you. Who took him serious of even the prosecution because he was their main witness at trial. Okay. So he tells them that he knows for a fact looking at one case [00:15:00] that she done it. Mm-hmm. Okay, so now that this has happened, they said, okay, yeah, we have enough to arrest her. So they arrest her, okay.
She goes to trial. Now, all of this stuff that we are talking about in terms of these reports, none of this gets released to the jury. The jury doesn't hear any of it. They only hear what's out of the story. The medical expert's testimony that he is absolutely 100% confident that she did it. Remember we said there were 61 babies?
Yeah. In that window? So why did they only go after her for 25? And why is she only sentenced for seven? That makes no sense. Because the 25 mm-hmm. Were consistent with the door scan data. They chose the 25 where they could match. That her badge had been scanned in that day. That's insane. And when they asked Dr.
Dewey, yeah, well, what about these other ones? Oh, those weren't murdered. And the babies all had very similar problems, [00:16:00] but because Lucy wasn't there that day, they didn't say yes. did it take him 10 minutes to come up with that too? Ooh, they started matching it. in other words, they pulled the cases, they matched it to the door scan data, and if it didn't match, the door scan data said, oh, that was murder.
And they didn't go after her for those. That sounds like a kindergartner telling what somebody else did. Mm-hmm. To me, I'm sorry. Yeah. So she was there at the hospital all these extra hours. Yes. 'cause she was a hard worker. Mm-hmm. That got her in. Yes. This mess kind of in a way. Yes. And the one Indian consultant who did a lot of emailing, he says that he saw her.
Standing by a baby bed with a respiratory monitor going off the apnea monitor. Mm-hmm. And she was just standing there not doing anything. That doesn't matter. He can lie. and that was obviously proof, but listen to this. Nobody ever saw her No. Inject anything into a kid. Nobody ever saw her inject air into a stomach.
'cause that's one of the Yeah. Causation things that they're saying that she did. [00:17:00] Nobody ever saw that. Nobody ever witnessed, Lucy let me doing anything. Did they have cameras in the nursery? No. And Tina asked me the same thing. Okay. No, they didn't have cameras in there. 'cause that would've helped a lot. Do they have 'em here?
Yeah. No. Okay. I think that's pretty, I'm just curious why would they not have cameras for real? Okay. All of this is going on This is 2017, right? Okay. So in May of 2017, the hospital publicly announces this police referral and they called it Operation Hummingbird. This is their investigation of Lucy Luby .
So now we start to see the media start to pick it up. So now we have a doctor versus nursing management conflict because what's now happened is the doctors are saying, we tried to tell the nurses. We tried to tell 'em there was a problem and the nurses didn't listen, and the nurses are saying, we don't think Lucy L's the problem.
We don't, we think that there's a problem with staffing and coverage and we're [00:18:00] taking care of sick babies and we are not equipped to do that, and we think that's the problem. Okay. Yeah. So that makes sense. All of this is getting covered. Right? so Lucy goes to trial. Okay. I think it's also worth noting that there were no defense medical witnesses at trial, not one.
And I do wanna get into this really briefly because I think this is really an important point. The reason why, unfortunately in the UK, they have difficulty getting doctors to defend other doctors or act as defense witnesses. Is because there is so much blow back for these doctors. There's one horrible story of a pediatric neuropathologist.
So like what my mom does? Yeah. But just like on kids and their brains. Okay. Okay. And there was a woman who. I think the baby was under one. Okay. But she had, gone out to dinner with her husband, left the baby with a sitter or something. Anyhow, she came [00:19:00] home and the baby was dead in the crib.
Oh my gosh. And so she's calling the cops, and the cops come and the cops say, after the baby had an autopsy and there was a little bit of hemorrhage around the brain, around the eye. And they say that was absolutely consistent with Shaken baby syndrome. And they put this mom in jail. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine.
So this mom has lost her baby, and now she's in prison, right? So during the course of the appeal, her defense attorneys call this pathologist. Yeah. And this pathologist goes and she reviews the case. She goes and reviews the literature and she goes, and she testifies for this woman at trial and says.
Not only do I not think this baby had shaken baby syndrome and his mom is innocent. Yeah. I think your whole informational base for putting anybody in jail for shaken baby syndrome is wrong. And if there's other cases that you've done this to people, I think you should reopen those. Ooh, I like her. She lost her license.
Oh man. She got pulled up by the [00:20:00] professional boards. That's insane. She can no longer practice in the uk. So this woman who was trying to give her informed medical opinion, for heaven's sake, she's a pediatric neuropathologist . Who else is gonna speak to this? Thank you. Because of what happened to her when they called doctors in the UK to defend other doctors.
'cause essentially you're testifying against the prosecution. They won't do it. They're scared. So this is why I'm applying to be an expert witness in the uk. Because it's not fair. that people feel like they're being penalized for speaking up. Yep.
It's really not fair. So we have this conflict between the doctors and the nurses that has now escalated into this really horrible situation for Lucy Luby. And this is, again, one of those things that if you believe she did it, if you didn't believe she did it, you can't deny that this whole thing started because we had a clinical situation.
We had babies who were sick and dying that. Rather than [00:21:00] trying to get to the bottom of the root issue, we scapegoated somebody. And even if you think that she has something to do with it and she has some suspicious behavior, which let's be real, she does have some suspicious behavior. Okay.
We talked about her room. Yes. Okay. Like she's 29. She has fairy lights in her room. I know. Listen, I mean, and there be fairy lights. Good on you, man. I'm not dogging fairy lights, but I kind of changed my opinion of that after I only watched someone one. Okay. I think the one I watched was on Hulu.
Okay. I think I'll have to go back and look, but I wanted to have a clear mind for you doing the deep dive. I thought she was weird at first. I didn't realize what she had been through. Yeah. They show her getting arrested this second time? Mm-hmm. I thought she looked weird and odd after you realized what she had been through.
Yes. She was terrified. It looks like her family, didn't really know what to do. Who would know what to do? Would you know what to do? Nope. I mean, do you and the lawyer also, I just wanna bring this up. Mm-hmm. But, I didn't know who the [00:22:00] lawyer that represented her, was he someone from, I don't know how it works over there.
State appointed? Yes. He's kind of on a team. Even with the prosecutors too, a little bit. They all have to come to be together. I think it would be interesting. It's an interesting question in terms of the culture, but it does definitely seem like, and as we keep telling the story mm-hmm. Of where all of this is now, I think that plays into it I agree with you.
I think this is definitely a very good old boy network in terms of all of these attorneys. I don't know, of course I don't have personal insight into the culture, but I believe you on that. Yeah. Because watching she's saying no contest the whole time and he is just sitting there.
Mm-hmm. I was yelling at him in my mind, like, say something to her, that's your client. help her a little bit. Mm-hmm. when they were, interviewing her the second time, also, I wanted to bring up I think it was a prosecutor, it was a woman. And she kept asking her about her Facebook.
Because, they were approved. The woman that was on that documentary had lost her baby. Yeah. She was very upset. Right. And I feel [00:23:00] for her, my heart goes out to her. Yeah. She doesn't know what to think. You know? But they were talking about Lucy looking them up on Facebook.
Who doesn't do that though? They were making her out to be a criminal for looking this family up. That's how we did it back even still now, I will go and research somebody, like if my daughter's dating some mm-hmm. You know, I'm gonna look, I'm a family parents grandparent, you know?
I thought it was an unfair question. Mm-hmm. Because she was confused Thinking she had done something wrong. Right. I don't think that's wrong to go, look up somebody. And especially when you think about like, our friend Tina had a daughter who had an extremely premature infant.
Yes. And Lucas was in the UAB NICU for two months, I think. Mm-hmm. And you get close to those people at that point. Absolutely. Those nurses will bond With those families . Because, especially at the extremely premature kids, I mean you're taking care of them, you are invested in them.
Yes. And you do build relationships with those families. Absolutely. And so it doesn't really shock me that she would have a Facebook relationship [00:24:00] with those families. Yeah. Because she was taking care of their babies. Yeah. She would bond with them. Yes. And I thought that whole line of questioning was also very odd.
It was used against her in an unfair way, I believe. I agree. Same way. Like her diaries were I agree with that. Yes, exactly. I agree with that. so in 2019, she's now convicted. she is serving multiple life sentences in the uk.
Like as it is now, she will die in jail. She will never get out. She is only one of four women in the history of the United Kingdom who's ever been sentenced to life. You know, it just. Only one of four. That's insane. So this is all hanging. This is all chill and fine and terrible until 2024.
And in 2024 there is an article in the New Yorker that talks about Lucy Luby and actually brings up the idea, could Lucy let me be innocent? So this is the first time somebody is actually looking at this, because I'll be totally honest with you. I [00:25:00] remember when this went down in real time. Yeah. And all I had was she killed seven babies.
Yes. She injected air into them. Mm-hmm. They had pathologic proof that she did it, and I'm be like, okay. Like I didn't question it. Right. And I really kind of feel bad in retrospect now. Wow. When I first heard this story that I didn't actually ask little more questions. Yeah. I feel bad. I just sort of accepted what was thrown at me and it's like, oh yeah, okay, yeah, fine.
But this article asked this question now, fun fact in the uk they could not get that article. Why? Because anything that goes against the justice system Yeah. Is essentially questioning their justice system. The people in the UK could not read that article in New Yorker. That's insane.
But they could read where they were painting her as a murderer. Mm-hmm. They could see all that. Yes. In the uk. Yeah. They could see all that the media took away. Just made her, and people are gonna believe it. She was 100% villainized in the media. Yes.
and people absolutely believed it. Yeah. so to get an [00:26:00] appeal in the United Kingdom is not like getting an appeal in the United States. Yeah. it's really hard to do. So she did get new defense attorneys and they did appeal the case and they said no, and they were trying to present evidence.
It's like, well, you already had this evidence at her last trial and you didn't use it. So it's not new evidence. So no, you can't appeal. So there is one other group she can appeal to you the criminal case review, CCR or something. Anyway. So you can appeal this good to this different place.
So her attorneys then reached out to Dr. Shoe Lee. I said, we're gonna come back to this. Right? Okay. So this is the doctor that actually they used his Dr. Dewey. Evans he used Dr.
Shoe Lee's paper. Okay. To say that this rash that these babies had is absolutely consistent with Aaron Bolus. Okay. The defense attorneys call Shu Lee and say, did you know that they used your published paper to throw this girl in jail? And he like. [00:27:00] I remember hearing about the story. I remember hearing about her.
Yeah. I didn't know they used my paper. Oh my gosh. So it had nothing to do with these babies? no, no. it's always dangerous to pull one paper. Yeah. I mean, this is basic good medicine. It's like, I pull one paper to justify what I'm doing.
It's like, no, no, no, no. You collect multiple papers. Yeah. And this is where AI is actually pretty great. Yeah. Because you can actually use ai. It's like, summarize the literature for me on X and it's great, right? Because then you get that big picture. Yeah. And then you can go back to the patient and it's just so great for patient care.
Anyhow, so shoe lee's like, that's really sc And so he hears the story. Yeah. About Lucy Lepe. He says, look, this is what I'm gonna do. Okay. Not only am I going to review all these charts for free. Yeah. I'm gonna get 14 other doctors from all over the world who do neonatology, and we're all gonna review these papers for free.
We're all gonna review every single one of these babies charts. We're gonna look at every single one of these babies that she's accused of killing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. We're gonna look at all of them. Okay. We're gonna donate our time. We're not gonna charge you, but he tells the defense attorneys. But whatever we find is whatever we [00:28:00] find.
Yeah. If what we find does not support that Lucy's innocent. So be it. Okay. And the defense attorneys were like, we're fine with this. Yeah. We just want the truth. Absolutely. That's all we want. Yeah. So he does all this for free. He pays his own way to London. He pays for his own hotel room in London. Yeah.
He does all this of his own. What a good man and then he does the press conference. Okay. None of these babies were murdered. None of them. They died from, and he says this. Bad teamwork. Oh my gosh. Bad medical care. And doctors who were performing care that was above their skillset.
Wow. And he starts going baby, by baby, by baby. Like you can't actually watch the press. I'm going home and doing the deep dive now After you have to watch the press conference because when he starts telling the stories, like I'm listening to the press conference and Yeah. my jaw's on the ground. It's making me tear up.
Yeah. one of the babies that they [00:29:00] intubated. Yeah. They used the wrong size tube to intubate. And so think about like if you're trying to blow up a balloon with a straw, you know, you can't do that because the air leaks out. Okay. Same thing, same idea. When they tried to fix it, they actually ended up blowing more air into the baby's lungs.
Mm-hmm. And they actually caused more trauma trying to intubate the baby. Okay. That was just one, and the baby's already struggling. There were at least two or three that died from untreated infection. So another fun fact about the Countess of Chester nicu, the. Plumbing. Yeah. To the needle intensive care unit.
Yeah. Was being contaminated by sewage water. So there was pseudomonas, there was bacteria in the water. Now they knew this. Oh my gosh. And I don't know what steps they had taken to fix it, but they knew. Yeah. So now you've got contaminated water with extreme premature babies. [00:30:00] Yeah. That's, are a disaster.
Which is no wonder that they're getting infection. Yes. So one of these babies, they actually did transfer to another hospital and they used this baby to illustrate, see the baby left and the baby was away from Lucy. It got better. No, the baby got better because the baby went to another nursery. The recognized baby was infected.
The baby got antibiotics and the baby got better. Yeah. 'cause the baby wasn't getting antibiotics that count as the Chester There was another one Because again, you watch the press conference, you can see yeah, each one of these babies and they start talking about, this baby.
Actually, I'll do two more because again, this really illustrates Yeah. Okay. So one of the babies that she supposedly Yeah. Killed with an insulin injection. So now these are very sickening needle babies. So they have insulin. just quick question. Yeah. Does she have to check that out with an ID to get insulin?
I don't know. I don't know if it works the same like a pick in the United States. Yeah. Where you have to ID it, that would be a trail right there to say a hundred percent. But see, I don't know how secure I don't know what that system's like in that hospital. that's a great question. So, you [00:31:00] know, all these babies have IVs.
Yeah. So anybody who's listening, if you ever put an IV in a baby. That's really hard. Yeah. It's already takes a really strong skillset to put an IV in adult Absolutely. About putting an IV in a baby that like sometimes they can put 'em in their little heads because the veins are easier to get.
Yeah. So they had put this IV through the vein. Mm. So the IV was not even in the right spot. Oh my gosh. So they're giving baby fluids, insulin, the baby's not getting any of it. Because it's what's called extravasated. It's going into the baby's flesh and skin. Yeah. But when you do that.
Basically because you've gone through the vein. Mm-hmm. You can get a clot. Yeah. The clot dislodged and they think that's what , And I wonder if that can cause a rash and stuff like that. Well, sepsis can cause rashes. Uncontrolled infection can cause rashes. Mm-hmm. And that was actually one of the things that Dr.
Shoe Lee said. Yeah. When he was talking about his paper that Dewey Evans was saying that, so many of these babies had this rash. And that's why he says in his paper with [00:32:00] regards to air embolous. Only 10% of babies would actually have a rash associated with that particular process. And the type of rash that he describes in his paper Yeah.
Was nothing like any of the rashes, any of the babies had counts of Chester, so it wasn't even the right rash mm-hmm. That they were using and they used that to convict her. I see . It wasn't even the right rash. I'll just do one more and then we'll stop because it's really egregious what happened.
Okay. So one of the babies. The baby's stomach was getting very distended. Okay? Right, so they said that Lucy Lepe had shot air into the kid's stomach, and that's what killed him. First of all, that's not how air Bolli work. You might get really distended and broke it out, but that's not how air Bol work.
Right? Then they said that she was overfeeding the baby and the overfeeding was making it sick, and also the baby was having massive diarrhea. Okay? Dr. Lee says. Overfeeding doesn't cause diarrhea and it doesn't cause distension. You get that with [00:33:00] infection. Okay. There you go. so when the baby got distended Yeah.
One of the doctors decided to stick a needle Oh, in the baby's stomach to try to relieve the distension. And possibly stuck the needle into the baby's liver. Fetal livers are very fragile. Yeah. Especially, and the baby probably blew out from that. Oh my gosh. Okay. This is case by case.
They go through all of these now. So this is what Dr. Lee says. It's heartbreaking. you gotta watch the press conference. Okay, I will. How can we say that we have a murderer in jail? When there were no murders, none of these babies were murdered. Mm-hmm. It was.
Lack of teamwork, bad care, and doctors who were doing things above their skillset. Yep. So now where we are with this is, this information is now very public, right? All of this, right? I mean the consultants communications, the communications [00:34:00] between the doctors and the nurses, all of this is now coming out.
And so there is now a board investigating this hospital. Oh. And oh, by the way, gosh, this's the other thing that came out. You know, as soon as Lucy let be left, the baby stopped dying as soon as Lucy let be left. You know what happened to the counts of Chester Hospital, what they no longer were able to accept premature infants.
So instead of putting 32 weeks and below, they could only take 33 weeks and above. That's insane. so they stopped, of course. The baby stopped dying. Yeah. They stopped being given the sick babies that were premature. Thank gosh that hospital does not need to be with those babies at all.
Yeah. For what the state. Yeah. And another thing I was just gonna say is, If they're short staffed and all that. How sad is it that she like was a 29-year-old nurse, worked for her license? That's hard to get. Yeah, sometimes. Oh yeah. It's hard. She was there all the time. 'cause they needed help, correct?
Yes. And it bit her in the butt. Yep. So this is where we are [00:35:00] now and I really do think that this is a story where I'm not sure that. I still know enough about it to make a determination. Yeah. But that's not really even what breaks my heart about the story is the fact that we had parents who lost their infants.
Yes. And we'll never know. We'll never know if these babies should have been safe. we can't answer this question sitting here. Right. But there was enough conflict going on between the doctors and the nurses and. The idea that this is what led to not only these babies dying, but somebody potentially being in jail who shouldn't be there.
Not at all is terrifying. Didn't you say that Jill is really bad? I think she's in the like worst maximum security prison. I think like in the uk. 'cause she's in it for life. Yeah. I think what struck me about the story Yeah. Is that.
[00:36:00] When you talk about people in the healthcare situation getting in conflict. 'cause I, one of the things I feel like over time you and I have gotten really good with managing. Yeah. We communicate really well. Absolutely. And because we communicate really well, I think if anything does happen, we pick up on it, we share it, yeah, it's a communal, it's like, I got this, I got you.
They had none of that at the Council of Chester. No, none. And when it became. We are about to get investigated. Yeah. 'cause we've got so many babies dying. How can we throw somebody under the bus? I can't help but feel this is what may have happened here. I agree. I agree. What could they have done?
If, okay, so I'm putting myself in this situation. Yeah. With these pediatricians are being pulled nine ways to Sunday. They are. Stressed, exhausted. Absolutely. I mean, the doctors in the National Health I've read multiple articles. I know how hard it is for them there I do.
Absolutely. But I can't help thinking, so you're in this situation, you see this [00:37:00] increase in babies dying. This is what I think should have happened. Number one, I think the doctor should have said, we are accountable for what's happening here. These are our patients. This is our hospital. Yes. We're gonna be accountable for it.
We are going to take accountability for what's happening here right now. Because I think that would've stopped them from looking for a scapegoat. Yep. I think if they had said, look, this is ours. This is our watch. Mm-hmm. This scares us. We don't like it. Let's figure it out. And at that point, if somebody said, maybe we don't have the skills and the people to take care of 32 weekers.
That's great. You would've saved some babies too. make that determination. Mm-hmm. I think if they had. Gone to the senior nursing staff and said, we have a problem. Is it us? Is it something else? Help us solve it. Yeah. And not, we think there's a problem with one of the nurses and we think it's Lucy.
Because I feel like that's immediately where it was. I agree. They saw that timestamp and they just ran with it. Yeah. And you also said, they did not let the nurses, her [00:38:00] team, correct? four of the nurses from Countess of Chester wanted to testify for Lucy at trial and they were barred from testifying for her.
That is correct. Why would they do that? I mean, I know, but legally how these people sleep at night. I feel like they just cheated in a game. Yeah. Literally cheated. Just to win on something. But it is disgusting. It is. and I guess that's my feeling. I feel like that. They knew that they were gonna be examined.
They knew that this hospital was gonna be looked at. I think the junior doctors are probably doing a lot of things without oversight. I think the first neonatologist from Liverpool before any of this went to trial, that looked at this report and said, this is about teamwork.
This is overworked staff. This is understaffing. Yeah. I think she already knew. Yeah. But the fact that. The police didn't show that, or nobody showed that to the jurors. Yeah. Again, you're [00:39:00] skewing somebody to a certain way of thinking. Because you're not giving them all the information.
Exactly. One, one side. And I do think the part of the reason why the nurses wanted to testify was because they had that information. I can't believe that people at the Council of Chester didn't know that that report came back. That they were understaffed. Yeah. I can't believe they did not have that report.
So Yeah. Everybody knew this is what was happening. And it all kind of comes back to, if that is your watch and that is your patient base, then on some level you have to decide to engage in that process of making it right. Yeah. And that process is gonna suck. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be hard.
You're gonna have to confront some hard truths. Yeah. Mistakes. You're gonna have to, I'm up to it. Absolutely you are. And I don't know if that idea of going through that process scared them or they felt like there was gonna be something very punitive that went on in that process, that they were like, no, we don't want to do it.
We we're scared and we wanna throw Lucien [00:40:00] under the bus. The boy has some upset parents. They were, very Understandably. Yeah. You know? Yeah. let's just say if you're one of the nurses, so you're accountants of Chester. Yeah. You are watching all of this happen. What do you do?
You are seeing this increase in neonatal deaths. You have the suspicion and you already have this confirmed Yeah. by outside sources that this is. A lack of staffing. This is a lack of communication. This is a lack of teamwork. What do you do? Gosh, like you are the head nurse of that.
Mickey, what do you do? Find out how to fix it. These are lives, these are babies. These are families, depending on us, to take care of 'em. Get onto the root of it. make sure it's nobody else, but just to put that blame on somebody Yeah. I just don't see how these people sleep at night.
Yeah. Now that they are actively investigating all of us. 'cause now thank With all of this, with Dr. Lee's Yeah. Report and the report of all those neonatologists. They are now going back in there looking whether or not this will [00:41:00] get Lucy another trial. I don't think we know at this point.
Yeah. But I think her case is very illustrative. Of what happens when you, rather than really trying to take a proactive ownership approach based problem solving process. Yeah. That you could end up with somebody in a situation that they're serving a life sentence, that they don't need to be there. Not at all.
And she has all these people. Can you imagine the lowest of the low? She has all these people that hate her. She's been painted as a murder killing babies. I mean, yeah. And if she did not do it, she was literally there trying to work and help them. Yeah. And she got acute. It went backwards on her, basically.
Yeah. And her family, her friends, I said a prayer for them . I cannot imagine her mother. I cannot imagine what she has gone through. She has probably heartbroken and broken. And her parents have stepped by [00:42:00] her. Yes. Her parents have stepped by her. Oh, in the documentary, listening to her mother, I didn't understand it.
Now I don't even know if I want to listen to her just 'cause the pain in her voice knowing they're taking her mother. Yeah. So yeah, I will be saying a prayer for that family and friends and everybody that loves her, and I just hope the truth comes out and that. something's good has got to come out of this for her.
Yeah. I hate to see how the soul just thrown in prison for nothing, but hopefully something good will come out of this and justice will be, Rotted, I guess is the best word for it. There actually is, and I haven't started it yet, but I'm about to start this podcast. There actually is somebody who's doing a podcast.
About Lucy Luby being innocent and being imprisoned unjustly as an innocent person. You know who's doing it? Who? Do you remember the Amanda Knox story? Yeah. Amanda Knox is doing a podcast about Lucy. Let Go, Amanda, I'm so excited. I know, know when you were talking about you hope something positive comes [00:43:00] out of that experience, I think Amanda Knox is gonna be living proof that something positive can come out of an experience of awesome being unjustly imprisoned.
Yep. I'm excited to say that as well. Thank you, Amanda. Pick it up and have her back. Have her back. Yeah. Heather. This has fun. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. This is so much fun. Look, honestly, like you said, if we can just reach one person, if the right person hears this, just to yeah.
Know that she's almost a child to me. Yeah. She's a 9-year-old woman. I just can't, yeah. If we can reach one person and get her help or. you feel so hopeless and helpless, but mm-hmm. Yeah. Maybe what's spread in this case, you know, I didn't know about it until you told me and I really hope that for people listening today you know, when we work in healthcare, accountability and ownership for where we are in our sphere of influence and practice is really important.
And I think this is one of those situations that. I [00:44:00] hope that as other clinicians hear the story, they will understand the power of being accountable, but not only being accountable, but actually understanding that building relationships and trust. Yes. And team building really does have an impact on what we do.
Absolutely. And I hope people will listen to the story as a cautionary tale for what happens when you don't do that. Yes. And that's more than anything I would love people in the UK to actually hear this. Yes. That would be really wonderful for me. If you're in the uk, reach out and leave us.
Comment please. 'cause I would love to hear what people feel about this and if we're wrong about anything, if we have a wrong 'cause, you know, we're just watching. I think, like I said, Hulu. Yeah, yeah. I've absorbed a lot of content on this. But yeah if we got something wrong.
Tell us, but for all of our peaceful warriors today who have listened to us, I know this was a very different episode for scalpel and sword, but I hope [00:45:00] even though it's different, it's welcome and until next time, my peaceful warriors be at peace.