In this episode of Scalpel and Sword Podcast, Dr. Lee Sharma, welcomes Tevor Allen as he reveals how his EMS boots-on-the-ground experience became his superpower in law, why “if it isn’t documented, it didn’t happen” still haunts cases, and how the same micro-mediations he ran in nursing homes now help him read judges in appellate arguments. A must-listen for any physician who’s ever worried about a chart note could end up on a projector in court.
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What happens when a paramedic becomes a medical-malpractice lawyer and then an appellate clerk? You get Tevor Allen: a rare voice who has lived on both sides of the chart, the gurney, and the courtroom.
In this eye-opening episode of Scalpel and Sword Podcast, host Dr. Lee Sharma talks with Trevor Allen ESQ., as he shares how his EMS background gave him an unfair advantage reading medical records, spotting documentation red flags, and understanding what patients and families are really asking for beneath the surface.
From intubation cases and bougie questions that made partners clap, to mediating family evictions and reading judges’ body language in real time, Trevor proves that the skills that keep patients calm at 3 a.m. are the exact same skills that win appellate arguments and malpractice mediations.
If you’ve ever wished physicians were better trained in conflict, listening, and “arguing to the room,” this episode is your masterclass.
Three Actionable Takeaways:
About the Show:
Behind every procedure, every patient encounter, lies an untold story of conflict and negotiation. Scalpel and Sword, hosted by Dr. Lee Sharma—physician, mediator, and guide—invites listeners into the unseen battles and breakthroughs of modern medicine. With real conversations, human stories, and practical tools, this podcast empowers physicians to reclaim their voices, sharpen their skills, and wield their healing power with both precision and purpose.
About the Guest:
Trevor Allen, Esquire, is a judicial law clerk for the Missouri Court of Appeals Eastern District. A former paramedic and clinical trainer, Trevor graduated from Washington University School of Law Dean’s List, Order of Barristers, Judge Amanda Brackman Moot Court Award after spending a summer working at a medical-malpractice defense firm. His unique dual background lets him spot documentation gaps, read hidden patient interests, and translate clinical reality into courtroom credibility. Bonus: he bakes a mean loaf and is owned by an adorable dog named Gwen.
Connect with Trevor Allen:
About the Host:
Dr. Lee Sharma is a gynecologist based in Auburn, AL, with over 30 years of clinical experience. She holds a Master’s in Conflict Resolution and is passionate about helping colleagues navigate workplace challenges and thrive through open conversations and practical tools.
[00:00:00] Hello, my peaceful warrior. Welcome to the Scalpel and Sword Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, and I'm so excited to have on the podcast today, Trevor Allen, Esquire.
Trevor graduated from the Washington University School of Law this past May. He was on the Dean's list in fall 22, spring 24. He won the Judge Amanda Brackman Moot Court Award. He also was awarded the Order of Barristers Excellence and Oral Advocacy Award. He also currently is now a clerk for the Missouri Court of Appeals Eastern District.
He also served as an associate at Thomas Miller and Simpson, which is a medical malpractice firm, and we're definitely gonna get into that. But before he did all of those amazing things, Trevor was a paramedic. He worked for Beacon Ground Transport. He was also a clinical trainer. He also worked for an ambulance service.
He has an amazing dog that I just love named Gwen. He also is [00:01:00] an amazing baker and he's one of my daughter's best friends. Trevor, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. I'm so glad you're here. I think one of the most amazing things that you did is that you were really able to bring together two worlds of experience when you were working for the medical malpractice firm.
That was between your second and third year of law school, right? That's correct. Okay. So all of a sudden you've taken all this wealth experience that you have working as a paramedic, and you're able to put this in a completely different arena, being a law student, and then ultimately, of course, a lawyer.
What was that like for you? In a lot of ways it was really gratifying, as you said, to be able to bring the two different spheres together because you know, as often as I was doing deposition summaries, which is not a lot of fun and doesn't require a lot of expertise, every once in a while I'd be handing a project that was like, Hey, sit in on this.
physician's expert phone call, and then tell me your thoughts on that afterwards, or, you know, research what [00:02:00] this, expert witness is going to say and kind of come up with questions that we can do to discredit them. And so when I had those more specialized, tasks, you know, especially dealing with expert.
Testimony. It was really was able to lean in on my, past as a paramedic. I remember specifically there was one conversation I had with one of the partners there where he came in and he starts talking about this, call he just had with an expert witness about an intubation case, and it was a really tough intubation.
the airway was really bad. And, so one of the things that I, interrupted to ask was, well, did they use a bougie? And I remember the partner just kind of clapped his hands and pointed at me and he said, that's exactly what the expert asked. And so, it was really you know, very, very gratifying and, very validating.
In a lot of ways to be able to take that experience and really apply it hands on in all of these different cases because there's a lot of nuance on both sides of that aisle. you know, it's an art on both sides. And so to have the experience on both sides I think was a bridge that, a lot of the attorneys that I was working [00:03:00] under, really was grateful that I had.
Yeah, absolutely. I love how you say this is so beautiful that you are able to kind of walk that line on both sides, that you're able to put yourself in that situation, and because of that, you had a very different frame of reference. You know, one of the things that we talked about in conflict resolution is this idea of being a boundary spanner.
That there's sort of this invisible line between these two areas of expertise and people who are able to have a foot in both sides. It's not only about having that base of knowledge that you're able to communicate with both sides. It gives you an insight into that way of thinking, into that worldview.
So as you're sitting there, as the attorney who's looking back at these medical things going on, did you ever feel like in reviewing those cases that you sort of thought to yourself, I wish that this doctor had done this. I wish that clinically this had happened. Could you see where those breakdowns were occurring More?
Easily. [00:04:00] absolutely, and I think the number one place that I can see it is documentation. And that's actually kind of something that I am very fortunate for my paramedic experience is because there was a number of, trainings that we had on the job where we had medical malpractice lawyers come in and go through some of our run reports and kind of drill through all of the different ways in which there were holes in it.
Because, I don't know the statistics lately, but EMS is one of the more, litigated areas, from my understanding a lot of that comes down to poor documentation. And so over that summer in a couple of these cases where I'm reading through these patient care files, and there's a lot of ambiguity in terms of the care that the patient got, and I'm sure that these doctors were doing the things that you know they're supposed to be doing, and you can tell from their documentation overall.
That there's a continuing pattern of good care, but if it's not documented, then it didn't happen. And so any small lapse in this documentation, I think is, one thing to say that you're going to provide good care, [00:05:00] but if you don't have evidence of that good care, it can really come back to bite you later.
Oh, a hundred percent. That's true. And I love how you just said that because I preach that to students all the time. If you didn't document it, it didn't happen. It doesn't matter what you did, what you thought about doing what you said, if you didn't write it down in the chart, it didn't occur. And one of the best things I've ever heard, I actually heard it from my office manager and I'm not sure where she heard it from, but it's gold.
She says every time you document, and it's sort of a weird way to think about it. But you really wanna think about having that document, that written thing up on a whiteboard or up on a projector in a courtroom. You wanna think about, what's this gonna look like? If I ever have to put it up in that situation and everybody's reading that, am I gonna be happy with this?
Does this accurately reflect my thought process and what I did for the patient? And it's so interesting to me because. Even though I feel like that's really, really taught to us, [00:06:00] at least I felt like it was taught to me, and not even just by medical malpractice firms. I mean just in the course of clinical training, it is remarkable to me how many times that doesn't happen in medicine.
Absolutely. and that was something that I'd see in all of the, positions I worked as a paramedic consistently. because I don't know exactly how quality, review or quality assurance happens, outside of EMS, but in EMS There's generally like once a month, once a quarter, depending on the organization, we'll get together with the medical director.
And so like. Firefighters from three different counties will all be sitting in this big room in a hospital, and then the medical director will put your report up on the board and start tearing it to shreds. Even with this very public aspect of it, where, you know, with every single person and their brother on the fire department is seeing these run reports that are in a lot of cases not very well written.
you still don't see a lot of compliance with the documentation that's needed. especially on refusals where somebody would call 9 1 1 and then [00:07:00] refuse care. Those were often very bare bones and it's more important to document what you didn't do or what you checked for, and that you ruled out.
in those instances, and so many paramedics in those cases just think, okay, well, They want to get out, so I don't need to do a big assessment because they say they feel fine. And it's often those cases where you need to be extra diligent. And that's something that, as you said, even though it's been drilled into these people, it's been, you know, every single one of these quality assurance meetings, there's at least one report that's absolutely awful, but it continues to happen.
Mm-hmm. And it's gotta take a constant vigilance because if you didn't document it, it just didn't happen. Oh, amen. There's so many things I wanna get into on what you just said. One of the first things I wanna get into is that you guys had regular scheduled structured times to go through that documentation where you knew everybody you worked with, and like you said, all these firefighters were in this room, and then your charts put up there and then it gets just destroyed.
But in a. Constructive manner so that you can [00:08:00] learn from what you did and you can get better at it. in terms of private practice or in terms of medicine, once we get outta training, those are things that might happen in training. you might have an attending or you might have a resident or a fellow, somebody who's ahead of you that you know, let's say you document it on a chart and then the patient like bounced back to the er and then they're pulling your previous chart to see what you documented to see if you documented appropriately or you.
Justified your reasons for sending the patient home or whatever interventions you made. So that might happen in training, but once you're in practice, that's not happening unless. You have a bad outcome or unless you're having to turn those charts over to somebody else. So unfortunately, the only times we may get that in private practice is when we're having something bad happen, which is not the time that you wanna learn to go back and look at that.
Right? I mean, that's the worst time. But the other thing that I think is really interesting about what you just said is that even though this was something that was happening and you guys had structured time to do it, sometimes, and maybe even oftentimes, the [00:09:00] documentation didn't get better.
what were you seeing as potential obstacles for that not improving? Because I mean, I think that's everywhere in medicine. I think first and foremost, and I don't know, if this is unique to EMS, but high turnover is one of the big problems that was plaguing it. Mm-hmm. When I was still in.
and whether that's just from the poor pay that's in, EMS specifically, or just the rising burden that it takes to work in medicine in the modern era. But, you just constantly see especially with EMT basics, who weren't doing more advanced care, a constant flood of new faces.
And so it would oftentimes be the same lessons every single time. but then also, the flip side of that is. A lot of times the people who end up staying long-term aren't necessarily the most motivated to improve. They're the people who are more complacent. And so you'll see the people who are more engaged, who are doing their work well, will move up in the chain in what little way they can to middle management and EMS.
But you also see a lot of people who see it as, a joke in EMS and I do stress that it is a joke. That, EMS [00:10:00] stands for earned money sleeping. And so there are people who kind of are attracted to the position because it does sometimes have those kind of perks. And so there's a complacency.
I think that's very easy to fall into, especially, when it comes to things like private transport where you're doing a lot of inner facility or a lot of discharges and complacency is, I think, absolutely the enemy in any kind of professional job, whether that's lawyering or medicine where. you lose your vigilance for one minute and you make a mistake that can be critical, and affect someone's life or you know, the course of someone's life.
I think that's such a great point and I absolutely agree with you. this is such a weird analogy, but this is what I always thought about when I thought about losing that vigilance. When you come out of training and you go into your professional career we were always taught where I trained in Dallas, that is if you always practice the way you were trained, if you always do what we have trained you to do that you'll be okay.
You'll be fine. You know, hang on to that. And one [00:11:00] of the weird analogies I think about is that the nurses used to say, when the OB residents would do our peds rotations, part of what we had to do is we would actually go to the nursery and we would do physicals on newborns. And they would say that when the interns or residents first got there, they were very vigilant about, you know if you were doing the physical, you would re diaper the kid.
If the kid had a dirty diaper, you would clean the kid and put the new diaper on. But after about a week of watching upper level residents do the physicals and just leave the dirty diaper there for the nurses to come back and change, they started doing it. And so they could always kind of see as the other younger doctors are watching, the older doctors have those bad habits.
They kind of figured, oh, it's okay for me to do that too. And I always thought about that because to me it's like, you know. Vigilance is, I'm gonna keep putting the clean diaper on the kid I'm not going to lose that habit because it's a good habit to have. I don't wanna leave my work undone for someone else to come behind me and take care of it.[00:12:00]
So I absolutely agree with you. I think that complacency of thinking, this will never happen. I will never have that outcome. I will never have this happen to me until it does. And then. People was like, well, gosh, I wish I would have. And I think that's such an important point. Were you able to participate in mediations when you were working for the med mal firm?
Were you actually getting to sit on all those as well? I was able to sit on one mediation with them, but it was, not in their medical malpractice portion of it. I think it was something to do with the school. but I was able to actually, perform a couple of mediations in eviction court when I was a two well, through the, mediation clinic.
and that was, an interesting experience. Yeah. What was that like? So in a weird way mediations was the most similar to EMS work than anything else that I've done. Um-huh. Since transitioning because especially doing, a lot of nursing homework that I did with, Tri-County Ambulance mm-hmm.
Because they had a lot of private contracts with them. it was [00:13:00] oftentimes my job itself was a mediation between the residents and the, workers. And there was, an element of powerlessness on my half because as a private ambulance company, we need their business. And so if they're. Not giving good care.
I can't confront them as much as I'd like to. And then I also can't, upset the residents even though they need to get going. And so oftentimes I'd come into this situation as a third party who doesn't know what's going on, whether it was an actual medical emergency or even just a behavioral altercation between the residents and the staff members.
And so I learned very quickly that in those situations, especially when it came to behavioral medicine, you needed to identify what it was that each party, you know, was really asking for. Because oftentimes it wasn't take this person to get checked out medically or leave me alone so I can take a nap.
So. In a lot of ways, I was able to use those skills and leverage those skills coming into these eviction mediations [00:14:00] because, for some reason that the, summer and the semester that I did them, it was a lot of family evictions, and it wasn't as many corporate evictions. And so when you have family members who are evicting each other, it's the same kind of thing.
They're not actually trying to evict each other. They're trying to litigate their family problems. And so. You have to figure out what the underlying interests are in both of those situations so that way you can understand what it is that the nursing home resident is really looking for. And oftentimes that was just basic respect.
And then also what it is that the staff isn't telling you about, the reason that they have called you here to take this person to the hospital and uncovering those layers was just as crucial into getting a successful mediation in eviction court because it wasn't just the money that hadn't been paid, it was also the.
personal feelings that had developed, the animosity that had developed over time. I wanna take what you just said. I wanna take that clip. I want to save it, record it, and play it back [00:15:00] to every single physician, every single patient, anybody who's been in malpractice interaction. I wanna take that and play it back because.
What you just talked about in terms of recognizing the underlying issues going on in the conflict, I think is something that so many people don't understand and they look at the conflict on the face level. They look at the positions, they look at what people are asking for. They look at this sort of zero sum winner loser thing, and.
What you just talked about in terms of looking for the underlying causes, and especially when you said, and this is the part that I think is so great and I really wanna drill down on this, is very often what the more disadvantaged party was looking for was personal respect. They felt like. Their basic personhood was being ignored in the conflict, and I think that happens to patients who walk into med mouth all the time.
I think the bad outcome was the trigger, but the underlying [00:16:00] causation was feeling devalued or unrespected or unrecognized, and as an expression of power. They will look to litigation to actually reclaim that sense of feeling, valued. And so often I think doctors just don't realize that, and I think this is the value of holding a patient's hand when something happens and saying, I'm sorry, I'm messed up.
And it's something we're not taught to do. We are not really taught to do that, and I think that's such a huge disadvantage in the medical profession that when we inevitably have bad outcomes, that we don't take that time to sit down. We're actually not taught to say I'm sorry. And I think that's a huge problem because just the act of sitting down with somebody and saying that gives them that sense of respect and power.
this person actually does understand that I'm a person and I think it's a start. It's probably not the whole be all, end all, but I think it's a start for walking that process, which I think is the reason why. I hope that mediation becomes more important because also as [00:17:00] a mediator, I am sure you were pivotal in helping both parties get to those base issues.
I am sure they did not walk in there understanding all of that, but because you had that perspective and you were able to see that there were deeper issues there, I think you were really beneficial in a lot of those situations. In fact, I know that you were, and that's really cool.
Your work in moot court and especially doing oral advocacy. And the reason why I wanna talk about that is. Just from what and background. So all of our listeners, Trevor and my daughter Rachel, were partners. And you were partners in the appellate You say it 'cause I'm not gonna say it right.
so it was the Wiley Rutledge Moot Court, competition, which was the, Washington University, RA school, moot court competition. But it simulates an appellate argument where you write a brief and submit it for, judging and then you have an oral argument with judges that, is a oral competition.
So you guys had to write the brief, you had to submit it, and I think [00:18:00] you won an award for your brief. we were the fifth best brief, I believe, which is, I mean, amazing. And then I think you got to the fourth or fifth round. so we made it How far you guys, the, quarterfinals? I think it would've been.
Okay. No, it would've been the Octo final. The Octo final is where we, We got knocked out. so wrong. So wrong. Y'all should have won. and I say that as your cheerleader, not just a parent, but one of the things that I think really struck me as I was learning from Rachel, what this process was like, is that you really have to, with app pate, you are looking for not really mistakes, but you are really having to delve deep.
I mean, it's very detail oriented, right? Oh, absolutely. You have to know the record inside and out, and you have to understand the case law and then understand just how far you can push the case law when you're making your arguments before the court. So one of the things I love about this, and one of the things, I wanna tie this back to conflict [00:19:00] because I think this process that you guys go through in doing these oral arguments and oral advocacy is you really do have to be so knowledgeable about your topic.
You have to be so aware of what that topic is that you are able to effectively. Argue and counter argue. I mean, you're having to listen to the person across from you, right? And then you're having to respond in real time. And I think one of the things I love about that, especially getting into conflict situations, is that there is a knowledge and awareness that you have to build.
Not necessarily just of the person in front of you, but of yourself. You have to know. Your argument. You have to know your knowledge base. And I remember getting I think it was a Snapchat from you after the first or second time that you and Rachel had competed that the first, as she started talking, she was a little bit slow.
And then as she kind of opened up, you said that she was just amazing. Like she opened up and he is like, oh my gosh. She would've been so proud of her. She was [00:20:00] incredible. that's all true by the way. That's all true. because I remember being so happy when I got that. Just for the listener, she was fantastic and she's gonna listen to this though, and so that's cool.
But I wanna come back to this because in a sense you're practicing for a conflict situation when you're walking into this. I mean, essentially what you're practicing for is a negotiation with the judges because when you're actually in the courtroom, which is what this is simulating, right, you're essentially in a position where, depending on which side of the argument you're on, you've already lost your case in the court below.
You've already gone through the whole process. You've put all your evidence before, maybe you had a jury already decide against you, and now you are negotiating with the judicial system to say, no, actually I should have won my case. And I'm convincing you as to the reasons why. And so I think one of the things that's most interesting about these types of competitions, and one of the things that you don't get to practice as much as would be helpful, is that it really teaches you that you're not.
Arguing to the knowledge that you have. I mean, you're [00:21:00] certainly using that knowledge to argue, one of the expressions that I learned when I was in trial practice was you don't wanna try the case that you've written. You wanna try the case that's in the courtroom. And when you're doing an appellate case and in this appellate argument, you don't wanna argue what you think your best argument is.
You wanna argue what you think the judges think your best argument is, and you're figuring that out. Over the course of the argument by listening to the questions that they're asking, by watching to see how they respond to you. You wanna watch their body language, you wanna watch, how engaged they seem with the argument.
if you think that you're on your best line of argument and everybody looks bored and isn't asking any questions, it's time to shift it up and switch to something else because they're not engaging with you. And I think that's one of the things that, working as an appellate clerk for the past three months that I've noticed is oftentimes these appellate lawyers are not.
Watching the judges, they're not trying to capture the judge's interest and speak to the things that are concerning the judges. They're always trying to get back to what they wanna say, and I [00:22:00] think that's one of the through lines that you can connect oral advocacy and appellate advocacy back to just regular mediations is those underlying interests.
You're not arguing to the law, you're arguing to the judges who will then tell you if you're right about the law, and you always have to be conscious of who that audience is. And argue to that audience. And it's one of the things that I think is, because I used to do speech and debate back in high school, but it was never
Anything like this where it was a back and forth with judges who are challenging you and asking you questions in real time, but aren't like your debate opponents. And so it's an entirely different skill, but I think, one of the most valuable skills you can have walking into a negotiation because it's teaching you not to rely on.
Just the knowledge that you have or the preparation that you have, but to be fluid, to be flexible, and be ready to change your battle plan as soon as the first instance comes that it's not going to work. Wow. Oh my gosh. Okay. There's so much I wanna talk about this. first of all, I [00:23:00] love how you explain this because, I mean, obviously I have learned much from Rachel about the practice of law and law school, but certainly it's just very, very tiny tip of the iceberg.
So this was really cool actually learning how you talk about appellate law and how you talk about these appellate competitions. This is fascinating to me. I love how you phrase this as. You are arguing to the minds of the judges. This is what you're trying to talk to. You're not trying to talk about what you think is right.
You want to actually try to understand what their thought process is. And I love how you describe this idea of you're actually watching their faces, you're seeing if they're interested, you're seeing if they're engaging, because I think that's a very similar. Thing that we do with patients that if you are talking to a patient about a particular topic or you're talking about making a plan of management and you can visibly see that the patient is not interacting with you and they are not really, you know.
I need to think about what that patient's thinking. What is this patient worried about? What is their worldview with [00:24:00] regards to what this problem is? And I need to understand that because if I don't understand that, I'm not gonna make my case, right? If I really feel like this is a course of action we could consider, but I'm not considering what that patient thinks about it.
I'm not doing a good job of connecting. I'm really not. So as you're talking about this process of appellate, I think that's so cool. But I wanna kind of also circle back, 'cause you already mentioned it and I was thinking about it before you said it, this idea of what we learned in debate and that you had done debate previously.
I don't know if you've ever listened to any of Malcolm Gladwell's podcasts. He does one called Recall Revisionist History, which is one of my all time favorite podcasts. I love it. But there's one that's called Malcolm Gladwell, goes to debate school and it's actually where he talks about that he was doing the monk debates in,
I think it was Montreal, but he got destroyed. And after this absolute whacking, he went to the Brooklyn Debate School and actually got lessons on debate. But one of the things they talk about to him in the [00:25:00] podcast is exactly what you just said, which is it really is this idea of we need to learn how to listen.
It's one thing to get up there and talk. Just say what you know and you know, this is what I know, this is what I wanna talk about. This is what I believe is right. That's cool. But debate mediation, conflict resolution is about listening. It's about listening and being aware of those cues. And I feel like that's one of the things, as you describe your very successful experience with doing appellate moot court, and then also now working as a clerk, you're really getting to see that in real time.
Yeah. And it, kind of ties back to what I said earlier about the experience with being a paramedic being the mediations and negotiations because mm-hmm. It kind of goes back to understanding, you know, who is this, person in this nursing home who I have to convince to get on my cot and get to the hospital?
And then yeah. Deciding, you know, who or what it is that I have to tell this person who works for this nursing [00:26:00] home that will reassure them that I am taking them seriously. So they'll bring my company back and I'll continue to have a paycheck next week. It was a constant series of these kind of micro mediations, and in each one of them, the most important thing was for me to understand who it is I'm talking to, what it is that they're really interested in, and how I can make what I want them to do what they want to do.
Yeah. I love how you phrase that as a micro mediation. this is a mediation on a smaller scale, a smaller timescale, but a mediation nonetheless. And as part and process of that mediation that you really are having to drill down on people's interests, on their identity, and you're having to do all that on the fly.
I mean, you're having to do that in a very small period of time. You're having to really absorb that information and the fact, yeah, you've got a one o'clock discharge and if you don't make that in time, you're not getting lunch. See, and that's key. [00:27:00] We have to have that. That's really good. We never wanna miss a meal, so that's awesome.
But I love that you were able to really capture that in this very small space. But also too, you see the parallels in doing that with your current practice of law and being able to drill down to that. And I would say that. Your early ability to recognize that that is the nature of mediation, actually being able to see the deeper interests of the parties involved definitely played into, part of the reason why you're so successful now in the practice of law is that you've got this very early start and being able to understand that and it made you not only more aware.
Of what that process was, but I think it also probably made people really wanna buy into your process. I think people can feel when you are actively involved in that. I never got the pleasure of watching you and Rachel or watching you in terms of doing moot court, but I'm gonna bet that your [00:28:00] passion for understanding where people are coming from and actively seeking what they were thinking and what they were tuned into.
Definitely made them buy into what you were already saying. Well, and I think that kind of ties back into something that you were, touching on earlier about knowing yourself and knowing what your knowledge base is and how you will come across when you go into these presentations. Because I don't think that everybody can come to have the same approach that I have when it comes to moot court.
certainly everybody wants to be in the same, Realm of similarity, but everybody has a very nuanced, very personal approach. And you can't exactly mix those and be successful, unless you're very intentional about it. And even then, I think a lot of people. Who try and adapt, their styles to be more like someone else in the ways that they've been successful, runs the risk of being less genuine.
And I think being genuine is something, like you said, that people really recognize and that's one of the things that you need to. Really focus on is what is it that I can do? because there's ways to [00:29:00] get across that you care about someone even if you're not the most congenial person.
Naturally. I've met several medical providers who might come off a little abrasive to me, but every single one of their patients knew that it was because they were fighting for them. And so, at the end of the day, I think it's very important to make sure that you know who you come across as and what your strengths are when you're coming to these negotiations.
Because I wouldn't be able to come across as kind of the more assertive way that, I've seen a lot of people be very successful. And knowing that gives me more of an advantage when I come into these situations because I understand what not to do because it's not what will be successful for me. I love that.
I love how you talk about that. I love how you talk about this idea of being authentic in the process and how that presents itself in mediation, negotiation. You're working moot court because I think there is that tendency, right, that you look at somebody who's successful, that you look at somebody who's done well in the space and it's like, I wanna emulate that.
That person's [00:30:00] had enormous success. I wanna be like that too. So I'm gonna act the way they act. And I think where I see it. In medicine. I see it for students and I see it for residents who maybe have a role model who maybe that role model is a really good doctor, but maybe they're kind of a jerk when it comes to the staff.
So that student or that learner thinks maybe that's okay. I've seen it with surgeons who saw people, you know, their attendings throw things and yell in the operating room and think that that must be okay to do. And that's never okay to do. And as a result, they try to become something they're not. And maybe some of it is admiration, some of it's permissiveness.
They think it's okay to act that way because they've seen somebody else do that. And as a result. Not only does it make them less effective, it makes them probably less happy because they're trying to purport themselves to be something that they're not. As opposed to actually spending time and drilling down on who they are and what does your work style [00:31:00] look like?
What does your negotiation style look like? who are you going to be when you get into conflict situation? 'cause you're gonna get in them. Who are you gonna be at that point? And recognizing your natural events. I was on a. Podcast. I was recording last week with a wonderful position who coaches women physicians.
And one of the things that she calls herself as an accidental leader because she's a more soft-spoken, introverted person, and she was never gonna be the person who was gonna stand up in front of a group and slam her fist on the podium and yell and scream. That was just not her style. She saw people do that, but she said, that's not me.
And. I think a lot of people who are conflict avoidant, and I think that is a lot of physicians, we don't know how to deal with conflict. We are not comfortable in situations where we're having to argue for things. We're just not good at it. We should all spend at least a little bit of time doing mediation training, right?
So we actually learn how to be comfortable a little bit more in that space. But there is something to be said for knowing who we are, walking into it and knowing what our motivations are, and knowing what [00:32:00] we're trying to accomplish on behalf of the patient. As we walk into that process, and I think that's something that people can work on.
Yeah, I mean, especially if you're somebody who is more, conflict averse. I think understanding that when you walk into one of these situations just so that way you can keep that in your back of your mind and use that as a backstop so you're not being over accommodating or not, you know, compromising on any of your values is important.
But then, you know, the flip side of that is you don't necessarily have to be assertive to be effective. There are. Many different strategies that can be taken. There's a lot of avenues to convincing someone to talking with someone. And there's, you know, a hundred different flavors of success and each person has to find the one that tastes right for them.
Oh my gosh, I love that. We're gonna blow that quote up too, 'cause that's incredible. So let's say Trevor, let's say somebody pulls you aside. Like they pull you in a sidebar and they say, Hey Trevor, you know I'm a doctor and I've got to go into this [00:33:00] mediation, and I'm really nervous about it.
I don't know what this is gonna be like. What one piece of advice might you give that physician walking into that process? Well, I'm, gonna steal the piece of advice that I saw them give at, Thompson, Miller and Simpson. And that was just feel comfortable telling the truth. It's not your job to color the truth.
It's not your job as a physician to say what you think that your lawyer wants to hear or what you think that the jury might want to hear. Your job is to go in there, give the truth as plain as you can. Don't color anything. And then it's the lawyer's job to straighten out whatever mess that the other side's gonna do because the other side's gonna be very good at twisting you into knots.
They're gonna be very good at trying to make it seem like you don't care, or they're gonna get a quote out of you that they can write down out of context and it's gonna make you look really bad. A thousand hours of practice isn't gonna avoid that. If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. So your job as the doctor is to go in there, [00:34:00] be calm, be as congenial as possible, and just tell the truth and trust that your lawyer is gonna come in after and clean up anything that they need to clean up.
Amen. I love that. Trevor, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been incredible. If people wanna follow you, follow your career, see all the cool things that you're doing, how best would they do that? you can find me online, most, anywhere at Fifth of Daybreak, one word. And then, on LinkedIn, just Trevor Allen.
Awesome. Trevor, I really appreciate you being here. This has been an amazing conversation. I love how you've brought all of your talents together. Thank you Also too, just from a personal standpoint, thank you for being one of Rachel's best friends. It has really been just a blessing to me to watch how you have encouraged her, and I just love the fact that you guys have been so close and continue to support each other.
It means a lot to me as a mom, so thank you. Believe me, the pleasure is all mine. Rachel is an amazing human [00:35:00] being and I'm very thankful to have her in my life. And thank you so much for having me on the podcast. This has been a lot of fun to talk about law and, medicine that doesn't start with what made you decide to make that switch.
So thank you for not asking that question. I really appreciate that. Oh my gosh. You know what? you're just an amazing person, Trevor. I love what you're doing. I love what you're accomplishing. It's been a joy to watch. You just accelerate through your career, okay,
So full disclosure for the listening audience. Trevor and I Snapchat each other every day with our dogs. Every day I get snaps of Gwen and every day he gets snaps of Riker. Oh my gosh. Are we gonna get Gwen on the pod? Here she comes. Here she comes. Ah. Hey Gwen. This is Gwen.
Oh my gosh, Gwen, you are so pretty. I look at you every single day. You are so pretty. She wants to be amazing right now. Oh my gosh. So I actually have a friend of the podcast, Kimberly Best, who is a [00:36:00] nurse and a mediator who now lives in St. Louis because her daughter's a nurse in St. Louis. So she and I have become very close.
She has also recorded an episode with me and I told her I really wanna come to St. Louis. and I was telling Rachel this, and she's like. You're also gonna harass Trevor and Kelly, right? I mean, you're not just gonna go to St. Louis and just see your friend Kim, right? You're gonna go. It's like, yes, Rachel.
I would never go to St. Louis without seeing Trevor and Kelly. So I will let you know when I'm in town. And Gwen, let me not forget my sweet dog, Gwen. But yeah, I'll let you know when we're in town. Sounds great. Thanks again. All right. Thank you, Trevor for all of our peaceful warriors. Thank you for joining us on the Scalpel and Sword Podcast.
And until next time, be at Peace.