Join host Dr. Lee Sharma and physician coach Dr. Anne Hirsch on The Scalpel and Sword Podcast as they explore how communication breakdowns fuel burnout and conflict in medicine. Learn practical tools to recognize triggers, pause before reacting, and transform interactions with colleagues, patients, and family for a more balanced life.
This episode is sponsored by Lightstone DIRECT. Lightstone DIRECT invites you to partner with a $12B AUM real estate institution as you grow your portfolio. Access the same single-asset multifamily and industrial deals Lightstone pursues with its own capital – Lightstone co-invests a minimum of 20% in each deal alongside individual investors like you. You’re an institution. Time to invest like one.
_____________________________
Effective communication isn’t just a skill—it’s a reflection of inner stress and burnout.
In this insightful episode of The Scalpel and Sword Podcast, Dr. Lee Sharma sits with Dr. Anne Hirsch to reveal how peer review experiences exposed her to physicians’ blind spots in communication. Drawing from her coaching certification and decades in practice, Dr. Hirsch shares how doctors often lack insight into how they’re perceived—stemming from exhaustion, bureaucracy, and high-stakes environments.
The discussion dives into strategies for self-awareness: identifying emotional triggers (like that adrenaline rush from a cop’s lights), pausing to ground yourself (deep breaths, wiggling toes), and focusing on core messages without rabbit-hole distractions. Role-playing emerges as a game-changer, helping physicians see their tone, body language, and proximity—especially in power imbalances like attending-resident dynamics or physical size differences.
Generational shifts in medicine are highlighted: younger doctors prioritize work-life balance, challenging “old-school” grind culture, while wellness practices (walks, movies, family time) regenerate without being dismissed as frivolous. Dr.Hirsch emphasizes vulnerability in group coaching, where peers call each other out compassionately, leading to broader impacts on patient care and family life. Ultimately, mastering communication means deciding: Does this need saying? Now? By me?
Three Actionable Takeaways:
About the Show:
Behind every procedure, every patient encounter, lies an untold story of conflict and negotiation. Scalpel and Sword, hosted by Dr. Lee Sharma—physician, mediator, and guide—invites listeners into the unseen battles and breakthroughs of modern medicine. With real conversations, human stories, and practical tools, this podcast empowers physicians to reclaim their voices, sharpen their skills, and wield their healing power with both precision and purpose.
About the Guest:
Dr. Anne Hirsch is an internist with over 30 years in practice, serving on the Oregon State Peer Review Committee and as an expert medical coder. Passionate about physician communication, she became a certified coach in 2022 to address burnout, leadership, and behavioral issues through one-on-one and group sessions.
Website: https://physiciancoachingwithanne.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ann-m-hirsch-md/
About the Host:
Dr. Lee Sharma is a gynecologist based in Auburn, AL, with over 30 years of clinical experience. She holds a Master’s in Conflict Resolution and is passionate about helping colleagues navigate workplace challenges and thrive through open conversations and practical tools.
[00:00:00] Hello, my peaceful warriors. Welcome to the Scalpel and Sword Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, and I am so excited to have on the podcast today, Dr. Anne Hirsh. Dr. Hirsh is an internist. She's been in practice since 1992. She has lots of experience in peer review. She's actually on the Oregon State Peer Review Committee.
She's also an expert medical coder. But her main love is physician communication. She loves teaching physicians how to communicate effectively, and giving them insight into how powerful that communication can be in their daily lives, not only with their colleagues, but with their patients.
And she has a wealth of knowledge, and I'm so excited to delve into that today. So Dr. Hirsch, welcome to the podcast. Thank you Lee, so much for having me. I really feel excited, to talk about this topic. It's really very close to my heart. I'm so glad you're here. Anne, tell me what got you into position [00:01:00] coaching.
Well, it's kind of interesting. I've been involved in peer review at my local hospital and for the state of Oregon for the past, oh, maybe 10, 15 years. And I realized that if I was gonna be involved in the disciplinary side of medicine, I should probably be involved in the wellness side of medicine. And we had an initiative at one of our hospitals that basically involved coaching, and it was 12 didactic sessions where they taught us about coaching principles.
There were six, one-on-one coaching sessions with a physician coach and six group coaching sessions with a physician coach, and two a person. Everybody liked the one-on-one coaching the most, and I realized it was because doctors continually say, we're fine, we're fine, we're fine, and then we kill ourselves because we won't reach out for help.
We won't see a therapist. We basically don't have time for that. Not gonna admit that we're weak, whatever it might be. And so I thought I have to become a coach. I just knew at that moment that I needed to become a coach. And this was back in early 2022. And so I went through certification training and became a physician coach.
And because of my work in the peer review committee I do [00:02:00] coaching. Every topic, we work on burnout, we talk about closing charts, we talk about, leadership development. But my favorite thing is to talk about communication and behavioral issues that come up because I think people don't really understand sometimes how they're perceived by others and how their communication style has to do with all of that.
Absolutely. I love how kind of your gateway into this is peer reviewed. That you started by actually seeing where physicians were struggling, and how often did you find, as you kind of delved into this world of coaching and you were interacting with these doctors, especially as they were coming through, things like peer review, how often did you find that they legitimately had no idea that their communication styles were impacting on these things professionally?
You'd be surprised how frequently people lack complete insight. But when you bring it up to them and say, this is how people perceive you, they're absolutely mortified. They cannot believe that people would think that about them, because that's not at all where their head is. And so it's not [00:03:00] intentional.
It's not like we purposely, get outta bed every morning and go, I'm gonna be a jerk at work today. It's not that at all. I think it's the burnout, the frustration, the fatigue, the exhaustion, the mental, frustration with all the stuff we have to deal with every day that leads to our communication.
And when, told about it, most people are like, are you kidding me? That's how people perceive me. So most people are completely shocked. Wow. And so you're actually kind of being the person, almost the agent of reality to them saying, this is how people see you. And that's gotta be really hard for a lot of doctors, like you said, they don't realize they're doing it themselves.
But I think it's really cool that you're putting it in context because I think it's very easy for doctors to take that personally. We hold ourselves to a really high standard. And so sometimes in someone's like, people really do think you're a. And, you're trying to raise their awareness of that, and it's very easy for people to internalize that.
It's like, in other words, they're kind of coupling that with shame, I'm a bad person. And so, presenting that in the concept of you are somebody who's in this really [00:04:00] stressful environment, you're having some multitask. You've got, multiple things going at once, you've got lots of people asking you for things.
On some level, it becomes more of a survival skill than actually a trait. you're giving them insight into how they communicate. How do you teach them how to kind of start this journey of improving their communication?
First we start with the idea that, communication, yes, it's a skill, but it's also representative of what's going on inside of us. And most of the time when people have poor communication, it's because of burnout. It's because of stress, it's because of emotional fatigue.
It's because of all the things we deal with with insurance companies and red tape and all the bureaucracy. And so I think sometimes just recognizing that is the first step. And then secondly, recognizing when we feel that it's almost like that hit of adrenaline you get when you see the cop. behind you with the swirling lights.
it's that feeling that you get when you recognize that in yourself and you know that you're triggered by something rather than being defensive and just blurting out whatever response you wanna blurt out, stopping, pausing, and doing whatever it [00:05:00] takes to ground yourself. That could be just taking a deep breath, could be wiggling your toes in your shoes.
It could twiz your ring around, whatever it might be. That just some kind of representative thing for you that makes you recognize, oh. I'm triggered. I need to, bring it down a notch. And so we start there and then we also start thinking about like, what is it that I really wanna get across in this conversation?
What's the point I really wanna make? Because we can go down so many rabbit holes when we get triggered emotionally. We also wanna think about what is the other person feeling or thinking at this moment. where are they coming from? Because we need to make sure we're aware of that. And then having compassion for both people.
And figuring out how can we go about this process and make sure that we both come out feeling respected, even if there's conflict, because invariably there's gonna be conflict. And that's okay. We learn from that. Absolutely. Oh my gosh, yes. There's so much to talk about in what you just said because everything you said, every step of that is so amazing and it's so powerful.
I love when talked about is like when we get triggered, how we go down rabbit holes. [00:06:00] and sometimes that can really contribute to difficulty with communication. I think that happens a lot in conflict as you said, because a lot of times when we're in conflict in a situation, we're not really taught how to be in conflict with people.
Unless you were really modeled that as a child or you had somebody who showed you how to do that, it wasn't really something that you learned how to do. So a lot of times when people are in conflicts about one thing, if they're talking about a call schedule. I'm in conflict with this other colleague about a call schedule This day I thought I was gonna be on off this day, but it looks like I'm on and they're having conflict about this.
All of a sudden you start bringing in other things. You start bringing in two years ago when this happened, I wanted this day off and you took it well. I've been working here longer than you and so I should have this day. And it's amazing how quickly we start to go down those rabbit holes. And so I love how you are teaching people as a piece of being a powerful communicator, how to stay very focused.
On the one thing that they're talking about, and not to go down those rabbit holes because it's just gonna escalate and make things worse. [00:07:00] I also love how you're teaching awareness, like the awareness of people's state of mind and how you're sort of being triggered to go into that. Do you find that using those kind of tools do people get really creative with using those mindfulness tools as you're presenting that to them?
Sometimes they really do. They'll come up with something and it'll just shock me. Like some people just rub their fingers together and that's their trigger, or when they get triggered, that's what reminds them to kind of just calm it down and bring it down a notch. I've been surprised sometimes at what people come up with, but it all comes down to, just recognizing when you're feeling.
Sensation and just stopping and pausing because so many of us just wanna blurt out a response and just stopping and pausing. Sometimes that's all it takes. Just one deep breath and then move on, and you come out with a whole different approach to the situation. Oh my gosh, I love that so much as I've been doing this podcast, this is one of the common themes.
This idea of stopping and pausing is becoming such a thread that's going through a lot of these [00:08:00] conversations. The more and more I talk to people who are working with doctors and who are, especially in this realm of teaching positions, how to improve professionally, which always improves, with conflict, that the idea of stopping and pausing is so important.
The idea of just taking a beat and taking a breath. Why is it so hard for us to learn to do that? Why is that something we have difficulty with? I think it's trained out of us, to be honest. I mean, think back to medical school. I remember, having 13 admissions waiting and we had to hit the cafeteria before 6:00 PM or it would close.
So it was getting there at 5 55, eating really fast, getting those 13 admissions. I think everything we do is fast and I think we just become so used to just bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, because we don't wanna waste time and sometimes The situation is critical. The patient may be crumping in the ICU, and so we have to make quick decisions.
And so I think sometimes we forget that and rather than calming ourselves and kind of taking that time to take that deep breath, we just respond. And when we do, sometimes we [00:09:00] regret what comes out of our mouths. Absolutely. 100%. That's such a great insight that this is something that was not trained out of us, but something that is inherent in our medical education system.
Exactly. We're not really taught housing. I actually think about this, that back in the good old days when we had pagers and were walking around wearing your pagers, that I still think if I was wearing a pager, I would have almost this Pavlovian sort of response. Like, I immediately go, as soon as it goes off, I'm gonna hit it and I'm gonna look at it.
And if I was talking to one of my children, if I was talking to my husband and my pager went off, I could not continue that conversation until I went and go to look at.
when you are talking with people about communication, do you ever get into the style of their communication? Do you talk with them about the ways they're presenting themselves also?
Absolutely. We talk a lot about body language, about proximity to the other person. depending upon the size room you're in, sometimes it feels like you're on top of each other. [00:10:00] And I know sometimes we've had small, petite women physicians and very large burly male physicians, and the difference between the two is,
quite alarming when that person is kind of towering over them. And so, yes, we talk about all of those things. We do a ton of role playing because sometimes I think it really doesn't make sense and hit the other person how they might be coming across. And sometimes, honestly, I'll be the other person and I'll lay it on thick, like I'll be really bad and they kind of see, oh wow, I'm not that bad.
And then they recognize kind of where they are coming from and it's. So eyeopening to do that. And everybody hates roleplaying, including myself. But I have to tell you, it's one of the most amazing techniques for people to see kind of how they might be coming across to other people. That is so cool. and you're right, it is something we don't think about practicing hard conversations. We don't think about actually rehearsing those things. But it's like anything else we do in medicine, the more we do it, the better we get at it. So, this definitely applies in communication.
Risa Lewis, who has been on the podcast before and has a wonderful book called [00:11:00] Microskills, that's one of the things that shocks, but in her book is having a group of people with whom you can crack as those hard conversations. It will give you that really honest feedback about, I think that was really good, but I think you could do this, or I think you came across like this because you're right, we don't always have insight into how we come across.
Until somebody like you shows us how we do that. So just because I'm curious 'cause I'm the little person. So what kind of advice do you give to people when they're in the situation where they have somebody maybe who's not even physically dominant? Maybe it's a situation where you have an intern or a resident who's in a situation with an attending and they're trying to learn how to navigate that.
What kind of advice do you give them? Yeah, sometimes it can be that level of, the authority gap, and sometimes it can be a physical gap. But I tell them, to number one, just be aware of those things. Be aware of your tone of voice. Be aware of your body language. Be aware of kind of how you're seated or how you're standing, and try not to be.
In front of somebody and try to back off a little bit and try to [00:12:00] understand kind of where that other person is coming from and what they might be feeling. Because I think sometimes we only feel what we're feeling and we forget to think about what the other person might be feeling and how they might be coming across and what's going through their head like, oh my gosh, my attending's gonna yell at me because I missed that, or whatever.
rather than actually kind of being like, okay, this is a learning opportunity for me. I'm gonna take this all in and I'm really gonna understand and listen and not be worried about. How I might look or any of those kinds of things. Oh, that's beautiful. first of all,
I love, how you're teaching people empathy. You're teaching them to actually think about how the other person's feeling. Because if we're really good communicators we should also be good listeners. We should also have the awareness of what the other person's saying. Malcolm Gladwell did a podcast about.
He had to go back to debate school, but one of the things that he really had to learn was to be a good listener. He realized he was a good talker, but not a good listener. And sometimes that's definitely us as doctors, we are good talkers. we feel like we know what to say. We feel like we've said it a thousand times, but we're not good at listening.
We're [00:13:00] having that sensitivity to the person across from us. And so we might be good talk but we're not good listeners, and so we definitely have to learn. And that's so true with patients. It's true with patients' families. It's true with our friends and families. It's true with our colleagues. there's so many areas where I think being aware of that other person and where they're coming from is so important.
But sometimes we just forget because like you said, we're good at talking, but not so great at listening. Yeah. one of the other things that you talked about when you were talking about teaching that empathy and teaching that presence. Is that awareness of not only what you're saying, but what your body is saying?
actually being aware. It's like, how am I taking up space? How am I respectful in my distance to the other person? Do you find that having that body awareness and teaching people that is something that physicians take easily to in general, or do we really have a hard time with that?
People actually do fairly well with that because most people go, like if I do this and I've got my arms folded and I'm kind of. Stepping back, people kind of recognize that. [00:14:00] So usually we're pretty intelligent people and so usually that part isn't too hard for us to understand.
I think sometimes it's forgetting how that might be coming across for the other person. like, Hey, I'm a big guy. I can't help that I'm a big guy. But yes, you can affect, you can alter how you. Position your body and what, proximity to the other person that you take and how you lower your voice as opposed to being, barreling through.
So I think there are things that you can be aware of, and most of the time people are kind of okay with that. It's sometimes the things they say that they have more difficulty understanding that, oh, that might've landed a little bit off for that person. So you're not only teaching people how to listen to others and be empathic.
You're teaching 'em how to listen and be apathic for themselves. They're actually having to feel where they are and actually have that awareness, because of course, like you said, especially if they're coming after you, I love what you say on your website about how a lot of times, physicians could been written up, but might even be written up again, this is sometimes their [00:15:00] gateway into actually working with you.
Is that this has tapped into them enough times now that they're actually seeking help. It's like, okay, I don't wanna get ripped up again. I don't want another patient complaint. I actually do wanna understand what I'm doing. And so they're reaching out to you to get better at that. But something you said a few minutes ago, I love, which is that this is a process.
Oh yeah. The idea of understanding how we communicate and how those words land, and being aware of how those words land. That's not something you're gonna learn overnight and be good at it. It is something that is a growth over time. my coaching program is generally 12 weeks.
Some people do longer just depending on the situation, but most of the time it's a gradual process with practice and awareness. And then we bring conversations that happened at work to the coaching session, and we talk about those, and then we go back and try the new skills, and then we bring back the next.
Conversation and we keep going like that and build on it. And it's amazing the, amount of self-reflection people have and the amount of kind of self-awareness that people [00:16:00] gain from this process in future conversations. 'cause they're like, oh yeah, we just talked about that. And they can feel that and they change their approach.
And it is a learned skill. It takes time. We don't change overnight. especially if it's an ingrained thing that we've been doing for 30, 40, 50 years. Oh, it's so true, right? And people have been walking around with these life skills and had no idea that it was something that was affecting them so profoundly.
Do you have people who come back to you, and I'm sure you do after working with you or working on their communication, and they share with you stories about maybe if they've seen patients or worked with colleagues for a long period of time, and they're coming back into those arenas, it's like what's with you?
You're different. There's something going on and I wish you hear that a lot. It is probably the most gratifying thing about the work that I do. I mean, I love helping physicians in general because I know that each physician I help is gonna impact however many patients that they see and it's gonna impact their families.
I invariably hear people come back and say, not only have I changed at work, and people are commenting on that, but they say, my wife [00:17:00] is, noticing, my kids are noticing, interesting things like that, that other people around them notice because they just are more aware of those situations.
And how they're coming across in every aspect of their lives and that's the most gratifying thing, honestly. Oh, I love that so much. that's gotta be one of the greatest things about doing the work that you do is having these doctors come back to you and say how this has spilled over into so many facets of their existence.
That's so amazing. Absolutely. Do you ever find out like as people are going through these processes of learning how to communicate better. Is there something, you talk about being in the physician arena, that we're busy and we have so much going on in terms of our burnout and our stress that actually teaching them how to communicate resolves or improves their burnout and improves their stress levels too.
Significantly. I'm so glad you brought that up because that is so true. I talk about burnout with many of my clients. 'cause as I said, many times the communication issues come about because of burnout. But yes, when people communicate better, their teams work better their[00:18:00] relationships are better.
They feel more. Heard other people feel more heard, so the working relationships are better. They feel like they're collaborating as opposed to being resistant of each other. They're less defensive. Everything about their day changes and so yeah, they still have to deal with insurance companies and annoying, bureaucracy and red tape and all of that, prior authorizations.
Yeah, I get that. The EMR, you know, all the annoying things, but just knowing that the way you're communicating is coming across with patients, staff, colleagues, family, friends, it makes all the difference. And burnout is amazingly improved. Absolutely. Oh my gosh, I love that so much. I don't wanna say a shocking insight, but I bet it's something that's really impactful for physicians who are coming to you and working on their communication skills.
I mean, that's sort of an unexpected benefit, if you will, of seeing that get better. So we've heard it a lot. We actually had a guest last week on the podcast, who was a recovery room nurse who was talking about when doctors would come in and yell and [00:19:00] scream in recovery. It was because they did feel a lack of control over the situation.
Because they felt that lack of control and didn't know how to address it. they didn't know how to take that beat and take that breath. It also prevented them from seeing that they had this wonderful team around them, that they were not alone. Right. Do you feel like our medical education system, 'cause we referenced that you talked about how a lot of our communication issues are sort of grounded in the way we kind of grow up as doctors.
That we're also kind of siloed. we're not really taught to be team players, and that's a result that impacts our communication. I think that's really true, particularly in my generation. I think I'm a little older than you, but back in the day, we were all trained to be independent. We were siloed.
We did our own thing, and we did not work in teams. I think the newer generation, my daughter just graduated from medical school a year ago. She's currently doing her residency in interim medicine. She was trained very differently from how I was trained and. They were trained more in a team approach, and I think they're used to relying on other people to do [00:20:00] things.
Even just the use of AI scribes and scribes in general. It's kind of a team approach to just getting the note done. there's other people involved in this process, it's not just about you. And I think they're trained very differently from how we were trained, and I don't think the pandemic helped that any, in terms of the siloing, because I think it kind of.
Put us back a notch or two. But definitely, I think today people are doing a lot better with the working in teams than what we were trained with, 30, 40 years ago. I absolutely agree with you. and I graduated in 93, so I'm not far off from.
And I do see that in the younger doctors. I see them absolutely embracing that team mentality. I also see them valuing learning, communication, like these skills that we are sort of picking up now. I definitely feel like doing the work that I've done in conflict resolution and then talking to so many wonderful people like you, I feel like that's definitely helped me because I am learning all these skills, trying to be a better communicator.
But I freely admit that, coming up in residency from 93 to [00:21:00] 97, this was not something we were taught. you prided yourself on, you know,I'm ob, GYN. How many deliveries did you do in your 24 hour period? How many C-sections did you have to do? You were not talking about, oh, I had a really great conversation with this lady in clinic and I got to hold her hand, and while she cried, we got to cry together.
That wasn't something I ever told my colleagues, right? That was not something that was valued in our culture. So now in our current medical culture, we are valuing communication, teamwork. We're valuing wellness, we're valuing mindfulness. We are actually talking about these things in the medical community, and I absolutely agree with, and I'm so glad your daughter is getting that as she's going through this process.
It's really cool that they're gonna be ahead of us a little bit. obviously we're in practice with a lot of these younger doctors. Do you feel like or see that having these younger people come through is positively affecting those of us that were not, exposed to that.
I think it can be, but I think it can also be [00:22:00] difficult because sometimes some of the older physicians are so set in their ways and so used to being, independent that they come in and see these other people wanting to work in teams and there can be a little bit of friction. But I think if they talk about it and kind of understand their roles and what they need to do and how they need to communicate and how they need to work together, I think it can be worked out.
But sometimes there can be some friction early on. I know I've seen that in several of the clients I've worked with. Wow. That's a great insight that for to the older docs, it's just harder for them to embrace it. I think too, as the older docs are seeing the younger docs maybe having a better quality of life, maybe they're seeing them hug the patient.
Maybe they're seeing that patient saying, oh, I really like Dr. So-and-so. That young guy, he was super, super nice that I think as they're seeing that positives in the system, that hopefully they're gonna start to learn that as well. I think there's also a lot of frustration on the part of us older folks, because we were like, we worked 120 hours a week, we did it.
We survived. Why don't you? And they're working 80 hours a week and we're like, your wis, you [00:23:00] know? So I think there's a little bit of that sometimes, but I do think that once we kind of start to see the benefits and start to see that work-life balance isn't a bad thing. Like this is okay and they're still gonna do okay taking care of patients and they're gonna have a better life.
And maybe it doesn't need to be the way it was. 30, 40 years ago. I think there could be positive from it, but I think it can be a little tough initially because we're like, we had to do it. Why don't they? Oh my gosh, I absolutely agree with you. and we hear it. Right? And in some cases we didn't just hear it, we verbalize it, it's like, we worked this call and we did this and these guys are going.
I mean, absolutely. I think we've all sort of either heard it, verbalized it, or felt it at some point. But the flip side is, as you see healthier healers coming out of the system, you can't deny that that's the case. You can't deny that. I was talking about this a couple episodes ago.
I had a second year medical student that I was seeing. who was asking me like, look, I'm starting to really study, starting to get really harsh. What are some mindfulness practices? What are some wellness practices that I can do [00:24:00] to help me get through second year?
and I looked at her and I went, first of all, I'm really prodding for answering this question because my only survival skill, my second year medical school was how much diet to I could drink? That was it. That was all I did. Well. The fact that you're asking this question I think that's so powerful and it made me actually think about what are my wellness practices today and how can I share this with somebody else and how can I actually walk the talk?
I think that's a big part of it as well, being able to be that practitioner. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be, taking a bubble bath and getting your nails done, it can be whatever it is that brings you joy and fills your cup. That could be taking a walk, that could be reading a book, that could be watching a movie, it could be going out to dinner, with your spouse, whatever it might be that fills your cup.
That's important to you. Because people think self-care and they kind of almost poo ppo it. Like, I don't have time for that. We all have time for what needs to regenerate and reenergize us. And I think we sometimes forget that because, we didn't take time for that back. In the training years back 30, 40 years ago.
So I think there's a lot we can learn from the newer generation for [00:25:00] sure. Exactly. I love how as you're working with doctors and you're teaching them communication styles, it's very much a whole package. You're teaching them how to listen, you're teaching them how to think. You're teaching them how to really be aware of what they're saying, how they're saying it, the body language, they're saying it.
This is communication is not just the words we say. Absolutely. It's intering everything. Do people really awaken to that pretty quickly? How far into the process do you have to take them before they really start to see that Communication is really a whole body, whole mind experience. I think for some easier than others.
There are some people who honestly just lack insight and just cannot see how other people see them. And I don't know if there's more physicians that are on the spectrum that maybe we didn't realize were on the spectrum and they just don't see how other people perceive them, because sometimes it's a real struggle to get them to understand that.
Other times, like within one session, and you just mentioned like, oh I wonder how the other [00:26:00] person thought about That statement that you made, what do you think that person might have felt? And they're like, whoa. Like it's mind boggling. So sometimes it's very quick and other times it's a little bit difficult.
It really depends on the person. Yeah there's one of those things, it's gonna be a very individual process as you're walking them through that. Absolutely. And I would also wonder, like in terms of the people that are coming in to talk to you. Are they all age ranges? Are they mainly all further on in their careers since the younger people maybe are getting this more as part of their medical education?
I've had clients from just outta fellowship or residency to end of career. All walks of life. It seems like there's just at all levels and it's different things. sometimes it's not knowing how to work in teams. Sometimes it's not understanding how people perceive them. Sometimes it's not knowing how to communicate.
Sometimes it's not recognizing conflict, sometimes it's not recognizing their triggers. It's so many different things with different people and it's really honing in on what is that? Because [00:27:00] as I said, it's usually indicative of what's going on inside them. It's not just about a skill. Yeah.
Absolutely. You really have to get to know that person to really see what's causing this block in communication. And that's not an easy thing because everybody's gonna have something different that may be holding them up and on different days, I mean, it may be a different situation, it may be a different day, it may be a different group of people, it may be a different team, and that's not something you can hone in on, really quickly.
Sometimes it takes time to really get to know somebody that way. Absolutely. Do you have ongoing relationships with your clients as well as they're on this path and on this journey? Like they do the 12 weeks, but they still communicate with you? Many times I hear back from people and I check in with them periodically to just see how things are going.
And sometimes we do little touch up sessions just to kind of make sure that things are going okay. I also have some group coaching sessions that I've done and so we get to know the cohort of people in the group. And so that's really great because people really are very vulnerable and willing to open up and talk about their situation.
And once you [00:28:00] kind of gain that amount of vulnerability in a group, it's priceless. It's absolutely priceless. I love that, and you're probably helping them, just being in the group situation is giving them that power to be reflective and vulnerable. And that's really hard for us, isn't it, doctors? we are not good at being vulnerable in those situations, are we?
Absolutely not. And I think it's really great because the participants feed off of each other. one person will call somebody out on something, they don't need me sometimes I'm just sitting there. it's amazing how well they do with each other. it's really a neat dynamic.
Oh, that's so cool. how other people can see us easier than we can see ourselves sometimes. Absolutely. Is really shocking. It's a little scary actually. Yep. I have been through executive coaching and that was probably my biggest insight walking out of it, is like, these are people that I've known for a day and a half and they are reading me like a book.
They literally are reading me like a book. And like you said, You have to be in a situation with people who really do care, who really are being kind, and they're all there for the same thing. But it's a very powerful experience to have that. [00:29:00] So it's really cool that you get to do that with the doctors you work with, and they get that experience as well.
Yeah. So let's say I was coming to you and said, okay, Ann, what is one thing you can share with me? Maybe one thing that she can impart to me that would make me a better communicator. I would probably say start with what you feel are your triggers, because we all have them. And I think recognizing what your triggers are makes all the difference.
Think about it just with your husband or your wife, your spouse, your partner or your kids. Think about those things that they say that you just immediately, you just have that gut reaction. Think about that. Stop and pause before you respond. You may say the same thing you were going to say, but you might say it in a different tone of voice.
You might say it at a slower pace. Who knows what's gonna be different about it, but it can make all the difference. So recognize your triggers and take a second, take a pause. That's probably the biggest thing I can suggest. Oh, that's huge. I think sometimes when we do that, when we actually [00:30:00] exercise that sort of meta thinking where we're actually looking at, all right, I just got triggered and I need to stop and I need to breathe.
I think that's one of the most interesting things that I have really tried to incorporate. But one of the things I find is that sometimes the thing that I was going to say, I don't say this thing that was gonna come outta my mouth is not even something that I can say differently. I can stay kindly.
I just need to shut up. I just don't need to talk about this right now. there's nothing what can come out of me saying this thing to this person, and so I just need to stop and turn along there are definitely times that I think as doctors, when we have those triggers come up, we so desperately wanna say them.
We so desperately wanna say. The thing that you did was not right. Mm-hmm. Could you please do this differently next time? Could you please do this a different way? Could you please do this way back? and we sort of will justify it, won't we? We'll say, oh, but I want this done for a reason, or This is why I should do this.
It's not even a matter of saying it differently, it's a matter of not saying it at all. Is that something you [00:31:00] also teach? I do. I think it's a little harder sometimes for people to recognize that, hey, do I need to say this? Does it need to be said right now, and does it need to be said by me? you have to think about all those things, but in that split second, sometimes it's hard, but absolutely if you can just not say anything and step back and just recognize that.
There's no need to say that thing that came up that you really wanted to say because you recognize that it might come across poorly. that's a hard thing to learn, but yeah, we definitely talk about that and try to incorporate that when it's appropriate. It's great that you have that insight yourself, because that's huge.
That's a huge thing to learn that, and it's very hard. as I've matured and gotten older, I've seen more and more how saying these things are not productive. if it's something that's really pivotal for patient care, then yes, I'm gonna need to circle back to it, and I'm going to need to, okay, so next time this happens, we should da da, da, da.
But in the moment and when things are happening, or if there's something else that's happening that day, this is not the time or place to make this statement. And [00:32:00] so. It's really hard to, because everything in you wants to say it, you really do wanna verbalize it, and it takes a lot more power to not say it.
And I think that's one of the biggest lessons because as doctors, we do feel like we're justified in saying a lot of different things, and we can justify it, but sometimes the bigger move is just not say at all. But I'm so glad that, as you see your doctor get better with communicating that's one of the things that you also see them do is that there's a way to say things.
There's a time to say things. Maybe there's a time to just be quiet. That's pretty powerful. It is. And that's a hard thing to learn, but yeah, when you pick that one up it's priceless. I love it. And I love the work that you're doing. I love how you are helping doctors. I love how you are having doctors come into your space that literally went from getting written up to actually communicating better, not only at work, also with their families and with the people in their lives.
I mean, the work that you're doing is so cool and so powerful. I love it. Thank you so much. [00:33:00] It really means the world to me. I know before when I was treating patients, it was individual patients. Now I'm treating doctors, which means I'm being exposed to all the people that they treat on a daily basis.
And then when I work with clinics with medical coding, I feel like I'm working with clinics. So it just feels like my reach is expanding and it just warms my heart. I have to tell you. I love it. Oh, and it warms minds to you. I love what you're doing. Thank you. If people wanna find you and reach out for your services, how would they do that?
Probably the best place is my LinkedIn profile, so it's Ann m Hersh, md. I also have a website, it's physician coaching with Ann and with an e.com. but mostly my LinkedIn profile's, probably the easiest way to find me. And I'd be more happy. And we won't talk to anybody if they have a question or not sure coaching's the right thing for them, or if I'm not the right coach for them, I have a certain style and maybe I know somebody who's gonna work better with that person and I'm happy to make that referral.
'cause we kind of get involved in the coaching community and we know who's out there. So happy to talk to anybody who thinks they might, need some help or want some help. More than happy to [00:34:00] talk to them at any time. I think the more and more doctors are aware. Of how fantastic these services are, what you're offering them, and how much it can impact them professionally and personally.
I think you're gonna have a lot more doctors seeking those services, and that's only gonna be great for our community and our patients. It can only be fantastic. That's what it's all about, making it better for the doctors and the patients, and honestly, like I said, it rubs off on their family, so it's a win-win.
Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for being so generous with your time and so generous with what you're offering doctors. It's fantastic. It's really wonderful. Thank you so much again for inviting me. I really appreciated the time. It was nice talking to you as well. Absolutely. So thank you for joining us today on the scalpel and sword, and until next time, let peaceful warriors be at peace.