Dr. Lee Sharma interviews Zej Moczydlowski, a Special Operations Combat Medic and NYU International Law LL.M. Candidate, about how his experiences in battlefield medicine shaped his perspective on justice, conflict resolution, and the power of healing in both medicine and law.
What happens when a combat medic turns to the law to continue his mission of service? In this deeply inspiring episode, Dr. Lee Sharma welcomes Zej Moczydlowski, who shares how his years providing care in austere environments from Sub-Saharan Africa to the ER taught him to lead through crisis, work across hierarchies, and find humanity in hardship.
Zej discusses the unique dynamics of medical teams in the military, where saving lives sometimes meant pushing past traditional roles and stepping into leadership with humility and resolve. He also reflects on his pivot to law school, his passion for international justice, and how medicine taught him to manage pressure, handle trauma, and stay focused on outcomes, not ego.
From delivering babies in Tampa to debriding wounds in South Sudan, Zej’s stories reveal a powerful truth: the skills we carry into conflict—professional, emotional, and ethical—can shape the justice we pursue. His dream? To prosecute war crimes and protect the most vulnerable through global legal systems. This episode is a masterclass in courage, compassion, and conviction.
Three Actionable Takeaways:
About the Show:
Behind every procedure, every patient encounter, lies an untold story of conflict and negotiation. Scalpel and Sword, hosted by Dr. Lee Sharma—physician, mediator, and guide—invites listeners into the unseen battles and breakthroughs of modern medicine. With real conversations, human stories, and practical tools, this podcast empowers physicians to reclaim their voices, sharpen their skills, and wield their healing power with both precision and purpose.
About the Guest:
Zej Moczydlowski is a U.S. Army Special Operations Combat Medic and recent graduate of Washington University School of Law. He is pursuing an LL.M. in International Legal Studies at NYU, focusing on international criminal law, armed conflict, and atrocity prevention. Zej has worked in some of the world’s most austere environments—including South Sudan, the Central African Republic, and Uganda—where he led trauma care in combat zones and humanitarian crises.
In law, he’s interned with the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York and the U.S. District Court in California. Zej is also a published author in the Harvard International Law Journal and has contributed to the Crimes Against Humanity Initiative under Professor Leila Sadat. His mission-driven path continues as he prepares to advocate for human rights and prosecute international war crimes on the global stage.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zejmski/
About the Host:
Dr. Lee Sharma is a gynecologist based in Auburn, AL, with over 30 years of clinical experience. She holds a Master’s in Conflict Resolution and is passionate about helping colleagues navigate workplace challenges and thrive through open conversations and practical tools.
Connect with Dr. Lee Sharma:
Email: scalpelandsword@gmail.com
Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome my Peaceful Warriors to the Scalpel and Sword Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, physician and conflict analyst, and I am so excited to have on the podcast today, ZJ Moki, who is finishing out his third year of law school at Washington University in St. Louis. ~Um, he.~ As a former combat medic, he with the ~ized Army, ~United States Army Reserves.
~Um,~ he was ~with ~a Special operations Combat Medic and Sergeant First class. ~Um,~ he has worked in Uganda, South Sudan, Congo, Central African Republic. He also was instrumental in developing COVID policy during the pandemic. He has worked several places. He has worked ~at ~as an intern at the US District Court of the Central District of Columbia.
He most recently worked at the US Attorney's Office as a Southern District of New York, and he is about to graduate from Washington University School of Law next month and after this, he'll be pursuing his master of law degree. At New York [00:01:00] University, ~um,~ in addition to all of this, he's one of my daughter's dearest friends.
And Zj, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here. ~Um,~ I will say, just ~for, ~for purposes, ~um,~ you know of the record, ~I, ~I worked at Central District of California for a judge, and then I was at the US Attorney's Office ~in, uh, ~in the Southern District of New York. It was my internships while I was in law school.
Speaker: Awesome. Thank you for that because ~I'm still, I'm getting better. ~I'm getting better at reading CV Law, CV Med, I can handle, but CV Law, I'm still learning, so thank you ~for keeping me~
Speaker 2: straight. Yeah, it's a ~very,~ very different language as I definitely have learned myself. I.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. But ~one,~ one that I'm happily learning, which is really cool.
~Um, you have had,~ I was telling Rachel this before we jumped on 'cause she just got to Huntsville. She's at a friend's wedding. ~So,~ and was doing Fed Court notes on her way down. She turned them into a podcast so she could study in the car on the way. ~Um.~ You've had a really cool, interesting set of experiences and I feel like one of the first ways I ~sort of~ learned about your experience, and I will be honest with you, it gave me a lot of [00:02:00] insight into kind of you and also ~sort of~ how you are in the medical world is we're both on Snapchat and we Snapchat each other, which is.
Awesome. And you and Rachel and a ~bunch of ~bunch of people were out one night, and this was, I think around the time she was having more shoulder issues and she was seeing the orthopod and she had gotten MRIs, and the snap I got was, why have you not recommended your daughter to take Meloxicam? Why have you not shared this with her?
Why is she still taking Anaprox like it's candy? Please stop. She needs meloxicam. And the first thing that went through my head is, okay, that's awesome because I don't wanna doctor my own kid. But that's a great perspective. But the second thing that went through my head's ~edge ~was it's like that's not the first time you've had to interact with a medical professional about a treatment plan, I'm
Speaker 2: guessing.
Yeah, ~not,~ not by a long shot.
Speaker: So where were you in your career when you first realized that [00:03:00] I'm gonna get in situations with other people who are in this world? And it's not about hierarchy, it's not about experience. It really is about the patient and who can come up with a good plan of management for the patient.
Where were you when you figured that out?
Speaker 2: ~So. ~So my background is a little bit different than most army medics because I was an infantry man that ~I ~wound up going through the Special Operations Combat Medic course. ~Mm-hmm.~ And the Special Operations Combat Medic course, it ~kind of ~spans all the branches, army, Navy, Marine Corps, air Force a little bit less.
~Um,~ but the idea is when you leave that course, you're not just a regular field medic. You're expected to be able to provide prolonged field care to a patient for about 72 hours. Wow. So part of the training that they put us through is to think about things a little bit more holistically and a little bit more long term ~than, ~than your average paramedic, for example, would be
Speaker 3: thinking about.
Right?
Speaker 2: And part of that training is okay, you're gonna have to think outside the box. You [00:04:00] might have a nurse practitioner or physician assistant MD with you. You might not. And at the same time, when you are working with them, ~you know,~ you need to work holistically as a team because we're working in austere environments where you gotta think outside the box.
And that's was a fundamental part of our training. ~Um,~ and so that kind of, that dynamic is a little bit different than what you would find in a traditional medical role, I think because limited resources. You might not have communications to somebody higher, and you've gotta sometimes wing in, figure out how best to fix the situation.
Speaker: Absolutely. And also I think, ~you know,~ the approach of the team mentality, but it's a team mentality that's not, like you said, a traditional medic role where you're triaging and transporting that you are having to do things more long term and sometimes with less. ~Um,~ and sometimes, ~you know,~ the personnel might change.
Did you ever have situations where you had physicians, nps, whatever, that maybe there [00:05:00] was disharmony or a lack of agreement on the team on how to manage somebody?
Speaker 2: Not really. ~I, ~but one thing that was unique about our teams, I'm thinking about my deployment ~to, ~to Sub-Saharan Africa. ~Um-huh. On the, ~I was part of what was called the special operations resuscitation team.
~Mm-hmm.~ And the way the team was formatted was there was a doctor and MD. ~Um,~ who I'm still friends with, the doctor who deployed with me, he wound up actually becoming a Green Beret after
Speaker 3: he
Speaker 2: Oh, wow. ~Uh,~ called back from that tour. ~Um mm-hmm.~ And then we had A-C-C-R-N. And the CCRN was actually the team leader.
Not the doctor. ~Yeah. Um,~ and that was because the doctors in the military typically have a ~le ~little less of the tactical and strategic experience, whereas the nurses typically come up a little bit more through ~the,~ the traditional officer, ~uh,~ progress.
Speaker 3: ~Mm-hmm. ~
Speaker 2: ~Um,~ and I think that having that perspective and because everybody on that team was kinda like, look, we're.
~We're ~all here to get the job done. And because the senior [00:06:00] leadership, even in those positioning, like medically speaking, the doctor would obviously have the ultimate say. But because of that weird dynamic where the CCRN was ultimately the team leader that actually ~kind of~ put everybody closer together where ~like,~ Hey, we have this weird austere environment situation.
Our teams are formatted for this reason that way. ~Mm-hmm. ~And honestly, everybody would be ~kind of~ collectively working through problems. And so ~we,~ it would be more of ~a team, like I said, kind of~ a team building. Not team building maybe, but like it would be a team decision typically on how to approach a situation.
~Mm-hmm. ~So not a lot of discontent really on patient management. ~Um,~ I think I saw that a little bit more during clinical rotations in civilian hospitals, but ~not Right. ~Not on my side.
Speaker: ~That is,~ that's so cool. And it's so interesting because I think in terms of medical situations, especially those of us who are in.
Traditional, like you said, traditional hospitals, clinics, whatever. We do tend to sometimes see more ~of, ~of that hierarchy and that [00:07:00] hierarchy leading to conflict because you do get into situations where doctors are like, I'm right. Do what I say, and then it's ~like,~ no, we're part of a team. All of us, ~you know,~ we're all invested in the care of this patient.
~And I think, ~and you said something really interesting about having the CCRN lead the team. This is not just medical, this is tactical. You're actually looking at where you are. You're looking at other factors, what resources did we have, and sometimes those kind of dynamics because in a traditional situation, if you're not really dealing with a lack of resources or if you're not really dealing with not having things that are readily available, I think it's easier to slip into a conflict because.
Everything else is ~sort of~ a gimme. And when all of a sudden you have a common set of obstacles, you have to unite, you have to be together on that. And I feel like what you're describing, you definitely were doing that when you were doing special operations in Central Africa. ~Um,~ it almost gives you less time to invest in a conflict.
I think that's an interesting observation. You saw more of [00:08:00] that in civilian life ~than you, ~than you saw when you were in the military. ~Um, did ~have you had any experience working in civilian hospitals? Have you done that any
Speaker 2: I. A little bit. So the way that the Special Operations Combat Meta course works is that you do all your training at Fort Bragg, at the Joint Special Operations Medical Training compound the JS OM tc.
~Mm-hmm.~ And after you finish your training at the JS OM tc, you do a month long rotation in a civilian capacity. ~Um,~ I, for example, did mine in Tampa, Florida. I did two weeks with Tampa Fire. ~Um,~ and then I did two weeks doing clinical rotations at Bayfront, ~uh,~ hospital and all children's hospitals. ~Mm-hmm.~ I don't know if ~this, ~the SOCOM program is still being hosted out of there, but if anybody from Tampa General or Tampa Fire or Bayfront happens to be listening to this, ~you know,~ they will always have a place in my heart for giving us a place ~to, to, ~to learn.
~Um,~ yeah. But it was also very interesting there because at that point we've only been in medicine. The medics showing up to those hospitals have only been in medicine [00:09:00] for, ~uh,~ six months, from, I think nine months nowadays is the standard and Right. The hospitals treat us almost like a resident in the ed.
~Mm-hmm. Um, ~we are. We're getting in there. We're intubating, we're throwing chest tubes. ~Um mm-hmm.~ I did a natural delivery my second day. I assisted on ~like~ six C-sections my first day, and this is after ~like~ six months of medical training. And they already trust us to go in and do that 'cause ~they,~ they also are very familiar.
All the physicians there have seen ~the, ~the course and the program we go through and they're familiar with the level of training we get. ~Um,~ so even there, everybody ~kind of~ is like, all right, the soms are here. ~We, we, we, ~half the time, they'd rather have us do an innovation ~than, ~than, for example, ~one of the, uh, ~one of the residents, which was ~mm-hmm.~
A huge compliment to us. ~Um,~ yeah. But yeah, so ~we, ~we do get civilian experience because of ~the,~ the other thing is, ~you know, ~one of the reasons we go to places that are typically a little bit more, ~um.~ I have to say it, but like more, a little bit more prevalence towards stuff like gunshot wounds and heavy traumas.
'cause the next time we might see a real patient might be [00:10:00] one of our buddies in the field in a combat zone. And so a lot of those physicians, a lot of those nurses also take us very seriously and want to give us the best training possible. To make sure that, ~you know,~ if the next patient we have is an American soldier, we have the experience necessary to do what we have to do.
So it was ~very,~ very fulfilling to work with them. 'cause they really cared about getting us through the experience. ~Um,~ yeah. Then the flip side was they trusted us. ~I mean,~ I think I was, ended my first week. ~Uh,~ one of the surgeons in the ED was like, Hey, have you ever done a central line? I'm like, no, that's not my skillset.
And he's ~like, well, I can, ~I can coach you through it. ~I, you know, ~and he walked me through doing a central line. I was like, this is so cool. ~Um,~ and it was just that level of respect going on both sides and the civilian side was ~very,~ very fantastic.
Speaker: ~I am.~ I'm so happy to hear that, especially with where you were going and what you needed to have under your belt.
And I think there's something that's so cool about they invested in your training so passionately because they knew where you were going. They knew what you were gonna be doing, and they also knew, it's [00:11:00] like, ~it's very,~ if you're starting to get personally, ~you know,~ this is a patient that. It's a friend of yours, it's a colleague.
It's somebody who's with you, who's actually in this combat situation that you really have to be so solid in your skillset that you can turn off your emotions and you can be professional and get it done. And that's hard. ~Um,~ and I think that's one of those things that we forget ~in,~ in all of our medical educations, we had to get to a point that you could literally say, ~you know,~ I care about what I'm doing, but I have to be professionally invested to get this done.
I love it that ~they,~ they were so invested in your progress. ~Um.~ And it ~kind of~ goes back to that, ~you know,~ we talk about the C one, do one, teach one ~that, you know, that, that,~ that process. ~Um,~ I~ don't want, I don't, I mean,~ I think that's the way I grew up. ~You know,~ that, ~you know,~ you see this procedure, you do the procedure on your own, and then the next time you do it, you teach it.
But that's cementing that knowledge base for you. ~Um,~ what was your favorite thing? ~Like, you, ~you did a lot of things. It's like you did deliveries, you did c-sections, you're doing chest tubes. Was there one thing that you just ~like,~ oh my gosh, I love doing this.
Speaker 2: ~Um,~ know, my civilian rotations ~were,~ were a blast.
~Um,~ the natural delivery was ~kind of~ a crazy one because it was actually not [00:12:00] a, so my first day I get into l and d and I got to assist on the C-sections, right? But I wanted to do a natural, because I'm never gonna do a c-section in the
Speaker 3: field.
Speaker 2: ~Right. You know,~ the reality is for us, ~you know,~ the only reason we'd be assisting on a delivery in the field is if we're in an austere environment and perhaps we're trying to win hearts and minds and, ~you know, there's, you know,~ a tribal elder's daughter is having a pregnancy and we are there and they ask us to help.
Something like that. ~Right. You know, and because we, ~if we're able to help them with that and, ~you know, ~make sure that everything is delivered. Safely. ~We, you know, ~we are seeing that we're there to help them. ~We're~
Speaker 3: not,
Speaker 2: ~you know mm-hmm.~ The bad guys. ~Um,~ and that first day there was no natural deliveries. And it was my only day in l and d, so I was like, ah, the C-sections were cool.
~Yeah. ~But I didn't really get any training value out of this. And then the next, I told the nurses in l and d like, Hey, if there happens to be a natural that pops in over the next month, here's my cell phone number. Let me know. And then literally the next day they're like, Hey, you should swing by l and d ~if you have a, ~if you have a [00:13:00] second.
And so this is across the street ~from,~ from the ED at Bayfront Over ~at~ AT Children's. ~Mm-hmm.~ And turns out there was a physician who had privileges at Children's, but wasn't actually an employee there. He had a client who was coming in for a natural and had a whole birthing plan and everything, and the nurses evidently had been like, Hey, we have this cool.
So in here yesterday, he really would like to do a natural, could he come and assist you? And I guess they vouch for me after one day. After one single day, Uhhuh, they're like, Hey, this sock would really ~like~ to do this. And they vouched for me. Yeah. And I got to go over there, meet the patient, meet her husband, go over their birth plan.
~And then as like, ~and the physician had me walk him through it a million times about the whole process. ~Mm-hmm. You know,~ step by step. And, ~you know,~ we had hours before the actual delivery happened because this was a planned delivery. ~Right. Um,~ and finally when, ~you know,~ 10 centimeters dilated, it's go time.
We're walking in and he's like, all right man, you're a [00:14:00] patient. ~I'm just here to, ~I'm just here to support you. ~And he had me be the primary. ~And evidently the patient knew. Everybody knew about this. And he's just like, all right, man, you're ready. Let's go. And he's ~like,~ this is all you, this is your show
Speaker 3: now.
Speaker 2: Oh, and ~the crazy I one,~ I'm not really huge on babies. ~Uh,~ but so for me, this was really about the training, but it was really cool. Actually being the primary and delivering the baby. And, ~you know,~ the afterbirth not so much. ~But you know,~ it was absolutely a very cool experience. And the fact that after one day the nurses ~had made, ~had taken, ~you know,~ the initiative to get me back in there again, that just ~kind of~ goes back to my whole thing, why Children's and Bayfront always have ~a,~ a place in my heart because the staff there knew he wants to do this because it might actually be a skill he needs to practice ~and,~ and, ~you know, or,~ or use in the future, right?
And they're like, okay, how can we help him? Wow. So that was really cool. And ~you know,~ I got a bunch of crazy stories ~from,~ from that rotation. ~Mm-hmm.~ My first CPR Save,
Speaker 3: ~um ~
Speaker 2: ~mm-hmm.~ Running around the whole place, trying to chase down codes. 'cause the first person to get there outta the sock and got to help out.
~Um, right.~ Lots of stitches, lots and lots of stitches. ~Um,~ I felt after that rotation I had [00:15:00] a, maybe a future as a seamstress. ~Um. ~But yeah, and ~I mean,~ and there was also, ~you know,~ one thing that I realized, ~like,~ and it's ~kind of~ transferred over to the law field now. ~Um,~ I have a capacity to turn stuff off, turn stuff on when I need to.
~Mm-hmm.~ Like first time I lost a patient, ~um,~ I'll always remember that the patient's trauma code name was trauma. Juliet, and I'll always remember Trauma and Juliet because it was the first time I lost a patient. Yeah. And. ~For,~ for me, I was able to, ~you know,~ turn it on, turn it off, and get past it pretty quickly compared to other people.
~Mm-hmm.~ And that made me realize that some of the stuff I wanna do in law nowadays is also some of the more intense stuff that tends to take a toll on people. And part of the reason I wanna do that is 'cause I realize I have the capacity to handle it better than some other people might be able to.
~Mm-hmm. Um, ~so, you know, it was a learning experience more than just ~the, the,~ the actual medical skills. But I learned by myself while I was there, which is also very
Speaker: cool. Very cool. ~I, ~I love how you talk about medicine and the practice of medicine as something that can bridge the gap in conflict.
~Something that you can offer, you know, you were gonna, if, ~if you had to do it, [00:16:00] you were winning hearts and minds by, it's ~like, you know,~ if they need us to do ob. Then we'll step in and do OB because that's how we build bridges. I think that's a beautiful way to look at learning skill sets in medicine. I think that's something that sometimes we forget that we have the ability, if it may not be in my wheelhouse, I may see a patient that needs something that's outside of my specialty, ~um, ~but I can look it up.
I can make phone calls. I can find out what I can do and if I can. Bridge that then I can actually help that person. And in doing, I have maybe even strengthened their relationship with the medical community. And that's something else that I think ~you, ~you speak to really beautifully is it's not just about you reaching out to help these people ~that we love having the soms we love having, it's, ~it wasn't just you, it was having.
~All, all, ~everybody in your training program, they valued you because you came in there. You were positive. I'm sure you were helpful. I have no doubt that you're running around labor and delivery, doing anything and everything that the nurses needed you to do, which is why they called you the next day and said, Hey, this guy is really cool.
Come on over. Nurses don't do that unless you really jumped in there and you were being positive and [00:17:00] helpful and doing what anybody needed you to do. That's why they had you come back the next day. I have no doubt of that. I also, I love how you talk about that you discovered that about yourself, that there are things that you can handle that make it easier for you to handle some of these ~tough, ~tougher things in law, which is why you are wanting to go.
Do these things because ~you know,~ you can, you didn't shy away from that. And I, that's one of the things that I think we forget in terms of going through educations. I think definitely in medical education, it is a self discovery process as well. What can you do? What are you good at? What do you need to learn to do better?
Where do you need to ask for help? ~Um,~ we don't always do that. And I think that sometimes where we can start to get raw with other people is because we haven't figured out some of those things about ourselves. I love ~how you, ~how you stated that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I will say ~the, the,~ the point you brought up about the hearts and minds and learning and helping, the craziest thing I saw in Africa ~mm-hmm.~
Was, are you familiar with [00:18:00] MYOB
Speaker: Bacteriums? Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: Bur really
Speaker: ulcers.
Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, so the dermatological presentation of tuberculosis, and it's very rare, but the village we were in. Had a ton of it on young children. Oh, wow. And ~they were, they, I mean,~ this is just,~ I mean, I,~ to lay people, I explain ~as,~ as flesh eating bacteria, ~you know?~
~Right.~ It's the easiest way to describe it. And, ~um,~ they just didn't have the capacity to really treat it. These kids were coming in. Every other day to get these massive open wounds washed out with hydrogen peroxide and you're talking about wounds that Oh, wow. Sometimes would cover upwards of five to 10% of their body surface area.
Speaker 3: ~Um,~
Speaker 2: yeah. But we were able to help them get some medication to start treatment earlier. And then there was one kid, ~um,~ his name was Frederick. I still remember him. ~Mm-hmm. To this day. Mm-hmm. ~My team actually got a really ridiculous photo of me carrying him outta the hospital one day that they snapped of me to be like, Hey, here's the cliche photo that you can use to impress women back in America.
~Um,~ [00:19:00] 'cause ~that's how, ~that's how we, ~you know,~ bust each other's chops when we're down range. But, ~um,~ our doctor, Jesse, he actually managed to get some money from, ~um,~ I believe a church organization back in his hometown back in the States. And we were able to get, ~um,~ enough money to get after we had treated, ~um,~ Frederick's Burley Ulcer, and ~we got, we got the, the, ~the wound stabilized.
We were actually able to pay for him and his father to get it on a bus to go to the Capitol in Juba, where we had actually flown a couple weeks earlier to see if they had the capabilities to do a skin graft. And they did. Oh, wow. So we raised the money ~from this,~ from this charity in, I believe it was Arizona, to give it ~mm-hmm.~
To Frederick and his father to get them to the capitol so he could actually not go through the rest of his life with, ~um, with the, the, the, ~the open wounds that ultimately ~Yeah. ~Typically led to a lot of those kids being disfigured. ~Um,~ so that was like our big victory story for that deployment because like we all loved Frederick and he was just, he was a really tough kid.
I wanna say he was like eight or [00:20:00] nine and like he was the one kid, like he would never cry out really ~when? ~When they were debriding the wounds every day. And so we were really happy we got to help him. Sorry, random story, but you, when you talked about that, made me think I should talk about Frederick.
Speaker: ~No, no.~
~I'm so glad you did. ~I'm so glad you did because ~that, ~that's the kinda stuff, ~you know,~ when you say you got that one story that you carry with you that you always talk about, ~that you know that made an impression on you and when ~that made an impression on you ~that. ~You were able to walk out of there.
It's ~like,~ this is what I did for this kid. This kid's gonna have a better life because of what we did. And sometimes ~you, you know,~ we need those stories to keep us going. We need those stories to keep us invested. ~Um,~ so no, I love it that you shared that. ~That's~
Speaker 2: awesome. Yeah. I have a PowerPoint on, but I'll send it to you
Speaker: ~later.~
~Do ~Yeah. ~No, no,~ no. You gotta send it. Yes. You gotta send that to me. That's so cool. You have. So many diverse life experiences. ~Um,~ and you are by definition in a field where you are going to, I presume, be in courtrooms and dealing with people and dealing with adversaries and figuring out ways to. Make things work.
~Um,~ do you feel like being a medic ~had~ had a benefit? And you talked [00:21:00] about being able to turn things on and off, and that was part of what you're carrying into your practice of law. But is there anything else in being a combat medic that you feel like you're taking into that experience?
Speaker 2: ~Um, well~ the first thing I'll say is going from medicine to the study of logs.
Everybody talks about law school being so brutal and ~so.~ Rough and stressful. ~Mm-hmm.~ And I remember my first year of law school, one of my classmates saw me, ~um,~ at a bar before a class just grabbing an afternoon beer. ~Um,~ yeah. And ~I'm,~ I always just joke and say, Hey, I'm Polish. It's part of my culture, ~you know,~ don't discriminate against me for the fact that I have a lunch beer.
~Um,~ but he's like, how are you not stressed? Like everybody, first year of law school is brutal and everybody is stressed and I was less stressed than most people, and I. My first reaction to him was, look man, I'm not sleeping in a tent in 120 degree weather and nobody's gonna die today. ~ Mm-hmm.~ And~ this, like, he and~ I didn't think about it in that moment, what I was saying, and to people who haven't dealt [00:22:00] with that, it sounds so morbid, but ~I mean,~ what's the worst thing that's gonna happen today?
~I'm gonna,~ I'm gonna do poorly on an exam. Nobody's gonna die today. ~You know?~ Yeah. Like ~that,~ that's really what it comes down to. Like that's the worst case scenario. Any day you're working in medicine. Yeah. What's the worst case scenario? ~As, as, ~as a law student, and granted, when you get out into practice, it changes because the worst thing that might happen is, ~you know,~ somebody who should go free, goes to jail, or, ~you know,~ the opposite.
That's right. Some real circumstance ~and,~ and some real, ~you know, real~ world stuff. But as a student. I was just like, yeah, nobody's gonna die today. Why should I be all stressed out? ~Yeah. ~And ~it's,~ it's the ability to ~kind of~ think of the bigger picture like that. 'cause like I said ~mm-hmm.~ I will always remember trauma and Juliet and that sucked.
Yeah. But that's not gonna happen while I'm in school.
Speaker: ~Right.~ That perspective. Definitely changed your approach to life.~ I mean,~ it changed your approach to school, but it changed your approach to life and I'm glad you shared it with him.~ I'm glad,~ I'm glad that other student, 'cause I'm sure he walked [00:23:00] away from that and really had to think about it.
~Um,~ and I think that's one of those things, especially I. I think in medicine we, ~we~ obviously, of course, are always thinking about that, but one of the things I also come back to when we, we say this to medical students, ~you know, as a medical student, you know,~ even as you're get into third year clinicals, you really don't ever have a reason to worry because there's always somebody smarter than you walking around.
There's always somebody who knows way more than you, that you can walk up to and go, Hey, this is going on, and I don't know. Number one, that's how you get the patient help. Number two, that's how you learn. Because if you walk up to somebody and goes, oh yeah, I do X and Y, you're gonna remember that you're gonna, okay, next time I need to think about X and Y.
You're still gonna keep asking. And even when you get to be an attending, even when you are, ~you know,~ out there in private practice or academics or whatever, there always is somebody smarter than you can ask always. And you ~kind of~ have to keep that in mind. And I. I think that's so common for people to get in situations where they feel like I am the final common pathway, and they get into conflict because of that.
It's ~like, no, no, no, no,~ no, you're not. You've [00:24:00] always got someone you can ask ~and I have never, ~and it's, I did a recording with a pediatrician before I got on this podcast with you, and one of the things that we talked about is that patients will never get mad for you saying, I don't know. No one's ever gonna get mad if ~you say, I don't know, ~you say, I don't know, but I'm gonna find out.
And then you go and find out, and then you come back and then you have an educated answer for your patient. And guess what? They're gonna really, number one respect that you did it. They're gonna respect the fact that you owned what you didn't and you didn't know, but it's actually putting you in a situation where the patient's buying into what you're doing because you actually took the time to go and investigate.
~And I. ~I think what you said to that person was brilliant because I think it's a great perspective and I'm glad you shared that. ~Where, ~where do you see your career in five years? Where do you, 'cause ~you're,~ you're on this really great precipice ~of,~ of graduating from Wash U and about to start your master of laws.
Where do you see yourself in five years?
Speaker 2: ~Um, the, the,~ the last week and a half have been ~kind of~ just, and I hate to use this phrase 'cause it sounds so corny, but like an emotional rollercoaster. ~Um,~ I wanted, like my [00:25:00] dream job 10 years down the line is to be a prosecutor in international criminal court.
Wow. ~Um,~ I~ think a lot of, you know, I, ~I just got published in Harvard's International Law Journal for a piece that looked at, ~um, I. ~The intersection of child soldiers and, ~um,~ culpability for sexual and gender-based violence. And I wrote on that because the case that I was looking at was actually the case of one of the warlords who my team was pursuing when we were in Africa.
~Mm-hmm. Um,~ and so having lived in South Sudan, central Republic of the Congo, ~you know,~ seeing war torn countries is just heartbreaking and. I would love to work on that level with, on the level of war ~crimes,~ crimes against humanity. ~Um,~ and over the last year and a half here at WashU, I've been working with Professor Layla Sadat on the Crimes Against Humanity Initiative, which is,~ um, well,~ very fortunately, ~I'm,~ I'm proud to say that last ~winter, um,~ the Treaty on Crimes Against Humanity got pushed out of the legal committee at the un and so that's something that is very near and dear to my heart, and ultimately I would like to, ~mm-hmm.~
[00:26:00] Find myself working on implementation of international law that protects, ~well,~ pretty much the innocence
Speaker 3: ~from mm-hmm. ~
Speaker 2: From that type of conflict.~ Um,~ unfortunately, you look all around the world right now between what's happening in Gaza, what's happening in Ukraine, ~um, you know,~ the international rule of law is not stepping up as much as it should be to prevent that type of conflict and those types of,~ you know.~
Just sheer numbers of death and injuries. ~Um,~ so ~it is kind of, you know,~ that would be very full circle starting ~from,~ from where I was to where I want to be. ~Um,~ but right now, ~my,~ my next couple of years is pretty much just trying to set myself up for that. Gonna do this LLM at NYU law, ~um,~ hopefully do. ~Um,~ an externship in New York, perhaps at the UN while I'm there, and then ~mm-hmm.~
Hit the ground and become a prosecutor. Probably at the state level, first federal level. I get lucky. ~Um,~ and then just keep driving on from there. Like ~my, ~my, my dream job when I was originally graduating ~from,~ from WashU before I found out about, ~uh,~ the LLM was I was gonna be a prosecutor ~in,~ in the Bronx.
And Wow. I could [00:27:00] not have been more excited about that. I, every day I go. Law students do not have a lot of time for pleasure reading. ~Mm-hmm.~ But my pleasure reading ~was book, ~was a book written by a sex crimes district attorney. ~Um, uh, uh, ~or an ~assistant district attorney, a book written by a pros, ~assistant district attorney.
'cause I was just so super excited about it. ~Um,~ yeah, and that's still what I wanna wind up doing. I just c couldn't turn down the opportunity to do this LLM program.
Speaker: No, absolutely. That is you are helping ~so many people. You are going to help ~so many people. You've already helped so many people. One of whom has been my daughter because she has been very blessed to have you as a friend.
~Uh, I mean~ that sincerely. ~Um, you know, you, you have, ~you have definitely been a blessing to her, ~but you are going to, and, ~and I think this is such a important point, ~um. ~You don't have to be out of school to help people. And I think you've exhibited that, ~um, ~your publications, the work that you've done, you have contributed actively to the betterment ~of, ~of your fellow humans by what you have done in law school.
And you're gonna continue to do that. And it's just really exciting to have the opportunity to hear you share these [00:28:00] stories. ~And ~I look forward. ~Very,~ very excitedly to see where life is gonna take you. ~Um, z ~it has been a pleasure having you ~on the path ~on the podcast. It's just been great. Thank you for being the first guy we ~could not have asked for better, ~could not have asked for better great stories.
~Um, um, ~do you have a picture of~ Yeah, ~yeah. I wanna see the slides of Frederick. I really wanna see that ~'cause I, yeah, I,~
Speaker 2: I'll absolutely send you the slideshow. ~Um, ~do I have time for one little anecdote real quick about the crossover law? ~You~
Speaker: do,
Speaker 3: man. ~Absolutely thank. Yeah,~
Speaker 2: so~ this was,~ this was just something hilarious that happened in a class a couple weeks, that any physician Uhhuh who's tuning into this is gonna get a kick out of.
Okay. So it's a simulation class that's goes over criminal procedures. ~Mm-hmm.~ And we have ~a fake me, ~a fake coroner's report for the shooting and. For the simulation, there's an expert witness that comes in and he's an actual doctor. Okay. Who's playing the character Who has to testify about the report he wrote?
Okay. And as I'm reading through it, it's like, okay, cause of death was attention. Hemothorax in the right pleural cavity, [00:29:00] secondary to gunshot wound. And then in the notes, the autopsy found 2000 ccs ~of,~ of clotted and semi clotted blood ~in the,~ in the right pleural cavity, ~uh,~ cardiac tamponade, blah, blah, blah.
And so it gets, I get to my turn to ~kind of like, you know,~ interview this physician. I'm like, wait outta curiosity, doctor, you said that the cause of death was tension hemothorax. And he is like, yes. And you said that there's 2000 ccs of blood in the right pleural cavity. Yes. How many ccs of blood does it take to fill the pleural cavity?
He's like around 4,000. So I'm like, wait, so how can it be, how can the cause of death be tension hemothorax if there was still room for the lung to, to expand? And he is ~like,~ oh. And he just looks at me. He is like, you have some, ~he's,~ he's staring at me like You have some kind of medical experience. He can't ask in the middle of the simulation.
But we keep going and I'm like, ~so, ~so maybe it'll be ~more, ~more accurate to put the cause of death as cardiac tamponade, secondary, the gunshot wound. ~And he's like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, ~that would be more accurate. And a second, the simulation is done. He just looks at me. [00:30:00] He is like, okay, what's your background, man?
Like, ~what's your, ~what's your story? And he's like, what do you do? ~I'm like, and ~I'm like, I'm a former special operations combat medic. He's like, okay, yeah, you've probably seen more ~tension hemos, ~tension pneumos than I ever will. And we just had a good laugh about it. But it was one of those crossovers of medicine and law.
~That just happened. ~I could see my professor being like, oh God, I should have known better. And it was just ~really, it was ~a really fun time. ~Like ~it was just one of those moments. ~But, um, ~but yeah, ~I'll, ~I'll get you the slideshow on Frederick. ~Um, ~this was really fun. ~I, you know, ~I very rarely nowadays get to talk about the medical past.
Technically I'm still in the reserves, but. ~Uh, ~I'm a sergeant first class now, so I do more paperwork than anything else, unfortunately.
Speaker: Wow, that is hysterical. ~That, that, ~yeah, ~he was, ~he was like, wait a second dude. How do you know that?
Speaker 2: He's like, there's no way he did that much research for this one interview.
~He just,~ he absolutely knew something was
Speaker: up. Oh yeah. No, I love it. ~I that is,~ you know what? That is the perfect crossover story, and I'm so glad you told it. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you peaceful warriors for being with us today on Scalpel and [00:31:00] Sword. Please don't forget to liken subscribe, and until next time you join us, be at
Peace.