Ever wondered how medical students handle conflict on the wards? Dr. Lee Sharma sits down with Natalie Simpkins, a soon-to-be graduate of the University of South Alabama School of Medicine, to unpack the challenges and triumphs of third-year medical school, from patient interactions to team dynamics.
Starting third-year medical school is like stepping into a firestorm—new challenges, high stakes, and constant conflict. In this episode of Scalpel and Sword, Dr. Lee Sharma talks with Dr. Natalie Simpkins about her journey through medical school and the conflicts she faced on the wards. Natalie shares candid insights on navigating patient care, collaborating with peers, and managing the hierarchy of specialties like surgery and OB-GYN. From dealing with “gunners” to learning not to take rapid-fire interactions personally, Natalie’s story is a must-listen for aspiring physicians and anyone curious about the human side of medical training.
Three Actionable Takeaways
About the Show:
Behind every procedure, every patient encounter, lies an untold story of conflict and negotiation. Scalpel and Sword, hosted by Dr. Lee Sharma—physician, mediator, and guide—invites listeners into the unseen battles and breakthroughs of modern medicine. With real conversations, human stories, and practical tools, this podcast empowers physicians to reclaim their voices, sharpen their skills, and wield their healing power with both precision and purpose.
About the Guest:
Natalie Simpkins : A senior medical student at the University of South Alabama School of Medicine, set to begin her primary care residency at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. A graduate of the University of Alabama in Birmingham, Natalie has a diverse background as a patient care tech, athletic trainer, and marching band trumpeter. Mentored by strong female physicians, she’s a trailblazer for women in medicine, building a career rooted in patient-first care and community support.
Website: http://medschoolwatercooler.blogspot.com/2022/11/meet-med-student-natalie-simpkins.html?m=1
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/natalie-simpkins-5b637914a
About the Host:
Dr. Lee Sharma – A gynecologist in Auburn, AL with a Master’s degree in Conflict Resolution, and has over 30 years of experience in the medical field. She graduated from University of Alabama at Birmingham in 1993. A physician passionate about helping colleagues address conflicts and thrive in medicine through practical strategies and open conversations.
Connect with Dr. Lee Sharma:
Email: scalpelandsword@gmail.com
Website: https://www.eastalabamahealth.org/provider/lee-sharma-md-obstetrics
Scalpel and Sword 1
Speaker: [00:00:00] Good evening and welcome to the Scalpel and Sword. I am your host, Dr. Lee Sharma, O-B-G-Y-N, with a Master's degree in Conflict Resolution. And we're here to talk about conflict. We're here to talk about how it affects us in our medical careers, and I can think of nobody more wonderful to help us talk about how those experiences affect us in the third year of medical school than our current guest, Dr.
Natalie Simkins. Natalie graduated from Opelika High School in 2017. She was in many wonderful programs. She was an athletic trainer for the football team. She played the trumpet in the marching band. She was actively involved in many school activities. She did her undergraduate at the University of Alabama in Birmingham and is about to graduate from the University of South Alabama School in Medicine in senior, a OA.
With a residency placement at the University of Alabama in Huntsville in their primary medicine program. And if you're wondering how I was able to do all of that without looking at a [00:01:00] CV is because Natalie is my daughter's best friend. Natalie also got married in January, and if you wanna know how.
Connected. Natalie is to our family, her husband, the newly anointed Dr. Daniel Meadows, who just got his PhD in chemical engineering was my son's roommate at Auburn University. So I could not be more fond of Natalie or just her family, and I am in awe of her and I'm so happy to welcome her to the podcast.
Hey. That was such a nice introduction. Wow.
Speaker 2: I need you to be like my introducer for everything at this point.
Speaker: I will. I will totally be your hype person. Just call me. Yeah. It's it's do you need an intro? Yeah, I've got the right person. Gimme one second. Yeah, no, she's my hype chick, so
Speaker 2: I feel like me and you're both each other's biggest fans.
I'm very happy about that. That's amazing.
Speaker: Same,
Speaker 2: but yeah. Wow. Such nice kind words. Thank you.
Speaker: And thanks for having me all the time, and oh my gosh, I'm so glad you're here. And I think it's because I have so many memories of you, and I think that's one of the things that [00:02:00] just, if I was going to like legitimately tear up, which I might, so I don't wanna talk too much, but like remembering, just like meeting you when you were in high school.
My first like really clear memory of you is at Davis Butt's birthday party. When all of you guys were over here and we were in the pool and we got in the do, and I think you broke a board. Yeah, as I recall. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And like you got so excited about it and it's like you just need to be here in TaeKwonDo.
And that was I think, where we really, I think I got to know you and then of course you and Rachel got to be such great friends. And that friendship I think has been a blessing for both of you. Yeah, absolutely. It's been really cool to watch you guys encourage each other on your paths. But also too have the experience of, you got to shadow me a little bit.
We got to be in the wars. You got to be in the operating room with me a little bit. I feel like one of the things that also has been really cool to watch on your journey is even though I think you've got a lot of medical influences, both of your parents in medicine you've spent a lot of time following people and shadowing [00:03:00] people.
I really admire you because I feel like you've made this journey your own. You didn't really, I feel like you had a lot of influences, and yet you were able to know so strongly for yourself what you wanted. You carved out a path that you really wanted to pursue.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely think that, as I grew up, I think that certain things became much more of a priority for me in terms of what mattered in medicine to me. So both my parents being nurses, I think that kind of shaped how I see patients and how I saw the broader picture. And then of course, like shadowing you and shadowing a bunch of other doctors and then all the other extracurricular things. In life that kind of just, tack onto this, like never ending development, of somebody.
I feel like it was because I didn't have somebody in like my shoes, for example, I think that no one else in my family had done anything like this. And yeah, I had role models that, but they weren't in my family. And growing up in like rural south and being in a family that's dysfunctional. And being able to be like, okay, I'm gonna do [00:04:00] me and then, having people cheer me on regardless of them understanding what's happening. I think the biggest, my biggest. Elevator in all this is having people behind me not necessarily to be like, Hey, you should do this, but being like, if I'm like, Hey, I think I wanna do this, somebody is behind me, like you, and being like, okay, do it.
Cool. I'll be right there. Like I remember that once, and this is not really medicine related, but I remember in in my first year of medical school where I texted you and I was like, Hey, I'm gonna run a half marathon. I've never run in my life. I have not ran since, but I remember you being like, yeah, let's go.
Let's do it. Having like people behind me being like, I don't know what the path is forward, but we'll be right here, beside you when you do drill it. I think that kind of gave me the courage to be able to carve it out and see what I liked and what I didn't like, and being like, it's okay to just sandbox it and see where it goes from there.
Speaker: And what a great way to approach, not even just like doing different things in school, but like how you're approaching a professional career. It's what do I like? [00:05:00] What floats my boat? And then once you have identified that and identified that priority, I think it makes it easier for you to walk out on it and chase it.
And that's going to, create just a beautiful career. I also think one of the things that you really did, and I think it's an interesting. Really part of the process is you really followed a lot of different people in medicine. Yeah. And it wasn't even just nurses, doctors. You worked in other jobs in the hospital.
Yeah. And if there's anybody who is able to look at all the different roles that people play and all the different ways that interacts and all the different ways that affects patient care, you've done it. You have seen that. Do you feel like that made you way more prepared walking into third year?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. I think so. Prior to medical school I was a primary, or not primary, a patient care tech. In a hospital. I worked night shift on med surg. Like in the nitty gritty of it all I think that if somebody needs like to get some character development, they should try med surg on the night float and see what kind of happens.
But it's I think that that first [00:06:00] instance pre, even prior to medical school was. Like getting used to just touching patients and being okay with that. 'cause it's crazy 'cause from pre-med to medical school, the first two years, you're in the books and you're learning about people and you're learning about the body.
But it's a whole nother field to be able to take what you know, and then be able to touch a patient, be able to interact with them, that you don't seem like a robot, and then come out on the other side and one, have a better relationship with that patient. And two, be able to actually have a plan in place as well.
So I definitely think like one, me being able to come into medical school, one, understanding how a little bit of how the healthcare system worked was a big proponent of this. And then two, I was a part of the primary care pathway from my first year of medical school. And then, those first two years for me were a bit different for anybody else in that I had 20 clinic visits in primary care per year.
And that's something that people don't get unless they're in that pathway. And so we could, me and my friends who were in the primary care pathway, you [00:07:00] could tell as soon as you, as soon as like the first rotation happened, oh yeah. We can tell who has not touched a patient for real.
And who has, is really, used to just talking. I think that honestly, I think the biggest. Thing that that third years forget is that we're all people. Like we all love to talk. We all love to yap about whatever, is facing us. I'm sure that is not, that comes no to no surprise to you that I indeed love to talk.
And I can talk people's ear off. And so me being able to go into somebody's, hospital room and they're having probably the worst day of their life, but being able to connect with them is something that was. Trained in me, but also it just comes from experience and being able to just remember that these people are just people and they're just having a really crappy day, and I'm doing my best to make it a little better and coming at it from there.
I think that's where a lot of, like third years maybe forget is we're just people. We're just doing our best, and just go about it like that. They're, you're not. It's for a grade, but it's not for a grade,
Speaker: that is beautiful, and I love how you say that, yes, you're there in school and yes, you're trying to get grades, but you keep the people first [00:08:00] and so your why becomes this really strong driver to I'm really here to help this person. We're both humans here trying to get it done. And I love the fact that you approach that. The way that you resonate with the patient as a person. Yeah. And that is something that I think a lot of people don't get a lot of times when they first hit the wards it is just an extension of the classroom.
And so it's I'm just chasing the a baby. I'm just, I'm, I just wanna be a OA, that's all I want. It's no, that's not really what it's about. If you really wanted to do that, you should go get a PhD. That's not what this is. This is something that's much, much different. And you mentioned that.
When you were starting the wards, you'd had a lot of experience, but of course you also got to observe other third years who hadn't had the background that you had either just from what you growing up, but as also in the primary care pathway. Were they also conversely watching you and watching the ease at which you were able to interact with patients?
Speaker 2: Yeah so how it worked for rounds for us [00:09:00] was that we have, the first few weeks, it's funny 'cause like you can definitely tell, who is terrified to go on rounds by themselves first and then like that. So definitely, those first few days, you have to remember okay, I have to go see my patient by myself, and then I have to come up with a plan, and then I talk to the residents, then I talk to the attending, and then we go on rounds, and then we actually have a full, it's a whole ordeal.
Being able to if I had, if me and my friends were meeting up, like to pre-round together, we would all like meet up in one spot. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go see this guy. And their patient just so happens to be, the next door over. So we're like, okay, we'll just go together.
And maybe if there's a pathology, then we'll show it. So there's, my school was really collaborative. Like we were not gunners, we didn't really do that kind of nonsense. So we like. It just helped each other out. And I remember like coming in, I am terrible at like pathology and like the physiology of things, like trying to explain how water goes through a tube is not me, but I can again, I can just talk to people.
So me coming in it's 6:00 AM patients don't wanna be awake, but I'm [00:10:00] like, Hey Jerry, what's good? Happy to be a part of the team and like including the patient in the team, just letting them see that in the same way that they're then gonna show me how to, put a dressing on correctly.
That it is that give and take. I think that in the same way that, they're watching me, they watched me like also have to like, deal with, how that looked in terms of the whole team with the residents. And like the attendings. So it depended on the, on, the team we were on.
Like whether or not, all the facets of, getting to know a patient, were gonna actually happen or whatnot. It like if I was on surgery, probably not, but if I was on internal medicine where rounds take 30 years to get done. Yeah. We'll talk about the patient. So I don't know, that's a very long-winded answer and I hope I did answer that question, but.
Speaker: No you totally did. So I love the fact that you recognized that you were in a collaborative medical school and I've had a lot of friends who've gone to South and had the same experience. They felt like it was a smaller medical school. It was definitely more of that interconnected. We're trying to help each other environment, not [00:11:00] all medical schools are like that.
You mentioned the term gunner. In case there are people listening to the podcast that have never heard that term, could you expound on what a gunner is?
Speaker 2: Yeah. A
Speaker: gunner is
Speaker 2: somebody in medicine or medical school in their training who their end goal is to be the best. And that comes at the expense of other people around them.
And it's typically putting them on a pedestal by also pushing people off their own. Or sometimes not even that active. It's more of a passive thing where Hey, I just want the grade so I'm not gonna tell people what the attending told me to tell people, or, stuff like
Speaker 3: that.
Speaker 2: It's a passive, malicious thing, but it's. Ingrained in medicine especially in the older generations, when it was all about getting a grade. It's a bit, it's a bit waning now, I think, but you'd still have pockets of those people and pockets in medical school.
Speaker: And I think that's one of the conflicts that medical students run into is when they're, if there are clearly gunners in your class.
And we all knew who the gunners were in my class and in my [00:12:00] old bones graduated from UAB in 93, but we had gunners they all sat together, they all sat in the front row. We all knew who the gunners were. We also had a term in the medical school class called targets. The people who.
Maybe we're not the gunner that we're really working hard to get through. And. It was really very toxic, looking back on it. The fact that we actually had those kind of labels. And it's one of those things that the further you get out from your education, the more you look back and you realize that was really crazy that we did that.
Yeah. But we had gunners that when we were in gross anatomy, they found a nerve, an Ansys subclavius when they were doing their neck dissection. And it was a pretty dissection apparently. And the professor's oh yeah, that's definitely gonna be on the practical. They didn't tell a soul.
Speaker 2: And so
Speaker: when we were doing the practical, we got to that and everybody looks like, what the heck is that? And so when we all got done with the practical, it's what was on Body 26? Does anybody know what that was? Those six people got it. But none of the rest of us did. When you are on the [00:13:00] wards and you're actually seeing patients and you're trying to work with your fellow medical students, do you ever, or did you ever find that you had gunners that were trying to maybe make that experience more negative for you?
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't say that they were like actively, antagonizing towards me in any way. I would say there is like a passive try hardness that exceeds what is what I think is like appropriate for a medical student. I think we're all trying hard, like for sure. Yes. But like in my experience, I never had somebody like trying to delete my charts, or do anything like that.
But I will say, there are people who like there were a couple folks that I worked with where it was like, trying to see four or five patients, like when I'm only seeing two or three got it. Or trying to, come up with a whole list of differentials when, the horse is right there.
We're not looking for the zebras out in the past year kind of thing. And they're. Even when it comes to if attending asks the question and they're asking it to me and then they, but in and try to answer it, that'd be that kind of [00:14:00] stuff. But, I think that like their one, I think the team surrounding can see it.
A lot of grading now in the clinical years is is the evaluations of your team. And, I think a lot of teams see through it nowadays. I think that especially residents that you're working with, they know 'cause they're just trying, they're trying to get their work done and trying to teach you and, do all these things and they can tell when something's up and when someone's doing too much.
Speaker: I think that's such great insight because if you are new to the wards and you have somebody who's doing this, a sort of microaggression where they're trying to be a try hard and you're not sure how to deal with it, I think one of the things that can really be, I. Almost comforting because that's such a stressful time anyway.
And then you've got this person who's trying to show you up is this, is, this is about the patient, this is about the team. And if I work hard and I do my job and I help my team. Then the people who are in charge of assessing me can see right through this. And that's also something that I think is sometimes really good to know.
When you're in that situation, the people [00:15:00] that are working with you, those attendings that are on rounds with you, they've seen it all. I. Yeah they know. They know a try hard when they see one. And so they're not going to ding you if that's something that you find yourself in the cross hairs of.
And I think that's a really important piece of awareness. 'cause it can be really scary. If you don't know that's what's happening and someone's trying to do that to you, it's, oh my gosh, I think that could be a really, you're already in a stressful experience and someone's adding more stress onto that.
Speaker 2: Because I think how medical students are, especially, coming off of preclinical years, which is I just need a good grade, going into this environment where it's, it feels like it's me versus them. When really every single day that you're in the clinical environment.
It is you versus you the day before. Are you doing just a bit better? Everyone is gonna have their strengths and weaknesses and everyone is going to feel like everyone else is ahead of them. And I guarantee you, every other person on your team feels the same way. It's not it's never, ever really, me [00:16:00] versus you.
It's always me versus me yesterday. And that's kinda the mindset I tell, like the younger folks in medical school, it's not about, it's literally, I don't care what Joe Schmo ISS doing. I don't. What I'm excited about is that my notes are taking me 20 minutes to do instead of 30. That's great.
Yeah. Now we've gotta rack them numbers up in residency, but we'll do better, as we move and being okay. Oh my gosh, yeah. With being uncomfortable, I think is a big aspect of 30 or what, which is, no one's happy with being uncomfortable, to be in that state for so long, it can be exhausting.
And if you're always wondering how the try hard is doing. It's gonna be more exhausting. I guarantee you. They're exhausted. They're just not gonna show it because they're allergic to that. I don't know. But yeah, I.
Speaker: There's so much wisdom in what you just said. The idea that this is we're, yes, we are fresh outta the classroom, but we've gotta get out of that competitive mindset with somebody else that the greatest competition is, I wanna know more than I did yesterday.
I wanna be better for my patient than I was yesterday. And that being your benchmark and not trying to compare yourself to somebody [00:17:00] else. I also. Really love the fact that the try hard's probably suffering too.
And I'm, but that's honestly, we're all in a very similar situation.
It's better to be helping each other than trying to hurt each other. And I think that's such a big aha moment. I have a really clear memory of being on my surgery third year clerkship. And we were in rounds and the person who was, teaching was running up and down the rows, standing us up and asking us questions.
And I don't remember what I was being stood up to answer, but I had gotten a couple of questions and the third one I did not know and I was sta I was staring there, it's like I'm trying to find an answer and the guy next to me literally, and it was, he was so sly, took an index card with the answer and just pushed it forward on the desk so I could see it.
And so I could just drop my eyes down and re and it and got the answer right. And he was like, okay, good. You can sit down. Yeah. And that's that to me is what the optimal 30 year experience should be. Yeah, for sure. [00:18:00] Whatever it is that I did not know. Not only did I. Get that answer right. Which is not what it's all about.
I learned it because whatever was on that card when he asked me that question and I had to look down to get that answer, I was never gonna forget it again. Yeah. That is now burned into your brain and it's those moments, not necessarily stuff that you walked in getting all correctly. 'cause you think you knew it.
It's the stuff that you actually saw in a patient that you actually had to help somebody with that you will never forget. Yeah. And sometimes it's really good to remember, it's like the biggest learning curve is the experience. It. It's not always gonna be the books at that point. It's gonna be the experience and that experience can be positive depending on who you're with and how you make it.
Yeah. It sounds like you really did a good job. It sounds like people who were around you and I'm sure contributed to your positive experience, but I'm sure you contributed to theirs as well. Was there ever a time that you felt that you were witnessing conflict residents, attendings, that you either had to just.
Stand back and [00:19:00] walk away from.
Is that something that you were exposed to at all? Oh, yeah. When you were third year? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. I think that's just the nature of the beast when it comes to medicine in general. It's all collaborative, but also at the end of the day, one solution has to be put out there and we have to act on that one thing.
So of course, stuff's gonna get muddled, schedules are not gonna align. People's ideas and beliefs are gonna conflict. Yeah, that is honestly, if I would've. I think every single day I saw a conflict of some sort. To worry about. I think that sometimes I was in it and sometimes I was out of it, and it really just depended on, the circumstances. Was the breeze blowing east or west? Who knew? Yep. I think that, yeah, I definitely saw it and I will also say, there. I say all this stuff from a backwards lens, of yeah. Looking back now, this is how you know you should do it.
There are definitely days where I was, I sucked. And it was definitely like days where, was I, part of the conflict. Yes. But did I, feel like I was like. Instigating did I, no, because it, [00:20:00] because we get taught I guess it south, we get taught how do we work in a team?
I think that helped some, but yeah. Medicine is just, it's sticky and it's gross and it's messy and it, people are so different. And, I could, me and I've literally argued about a plan of, for a patient for, with the resident and we were arguing about nothing because we actually wanted the same thing to happen.
So we were just like, just doing it to do it, so it, it happens. Yeah. And yeah, I think it would be naive to think that it won't ever happen, honestly. Oh,
Speaker: absolutely. Yeah. And which is the whole reason why this podcast exists. Yeah. Because it's gonna, and I think it's interesting because I think one of the things, especially that I've seen is that sometimes people like to pretend it doesn't exist.
Yeah. It's oh no. What planet are you on? This? This is everywhere. This is the whole reason why we're talking about it, because we know we're gonna confront it. We wanna know how to work with it. I do. I love the fact that you really saw yourself as being in that collaborative environment, and I know that contributed to resolving a lot of conflict and that, and also too, one of the things that I love hearing you talk about is this very patient [00:21:00] first mentality because I feel like when people have that why very clearly locked in, you're your why is your patient, everybody's got the same compass and.
You may disagree with bad things and people may have bad days and someone said something that set you off and buddy, you're gonna have to say something back. But at the end of the day, if everybody has the same focus, which is we want the patient, that can bring a lot of stuff in line.
Yeah. I also, you said something that I think is really cool is very interesting and. You said at one point you got into a disagree, you a conflict with one of your residents, but basically you were both saying the same thing. You both wanted the same thing
But was clearly in a space where it sounded like you were having a bit of a disagreement.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Was that something that you found, and it may be a person by person or specialty by specialty, but did you find there were. Specialties that were maybe not as amenable to you having those conversations with the residents and specialties that were
Speaker 2: Yeah, I, yeah, definitely. There, there is definitely some specialties that are more hierarchy driven than [00:22:00] most.
And I think that is where that, that non amenable likeness of conflict kind of comes in, I think that your surgical specialties are always gonna be a bit more hierarchical but I don't think necessarily that it's, it comes from like a point of like maliciousness.
It's more so just but looking back now, surgery for example, it's, we'll just be crappy to surgery. 'cause everyone, they, we always just shovel it on for surgery. Sorry, surgery's anyone who's listening much. Yeah. But love you guys. So yeah, so like for sur for surgery, everything has to be rapid, has to be quick there.
There is no time to just like. Let's think about if we wanna close this vein or leave this artery open or, stuff like that. Everything has to be rapid and there's a certain way that, surgeons talk and that's okay. I think coming from, coming from a background that I have, like again I'll ladi da the whole time, and so that it can be jarring for people. And something that I tell all of my like younger folks is it's never personal. It never is personal. Like genuinely, these people don't have time to know your name half the time. They're not [00:23:00] worried about, X, Y, and Z that you did. It's not personal.
They're just trying to do their work and go home. And it's, and I'll even pivot away from surgery, even ob gyn, at the. When stuff gets tough in ob gyn, conflict is easy to have. You're ob, so like it's easy for conflict to just seep in because things have to be so rapid, so quickly and there's no time to check in on people and be like, Hey how are you doing?
No, that's not happening. And I think that it brings in this level of resilience, you need to have. When you're in medicine, no one is going to be like sunshine or rainbows kind to you all the time, and that's okay. You don't, honestly, I'd rather you not be 'cause stuff has to get done. So it comes from one, if you're the person that's being aggressive and you're like being X, Y, and Z, this needs to be done. There's a way to say it without with mitigating, conflict. There's also a way to receive that, and it's by not taking it personally, it's never personal, even if it is.
Okay. It's, it again, it's about the patient, what [00:24:00] is best for the patient at this point. And that's like how I've, I viewed my, and that's still how I view it nowadays too, like mindset. Going back to specialties though, Yeah. Those rapid fire specialties. Yes. But even like in, in specialties where it's more about thinking about all the different ways that something can go wrong, like internal medicine.
Family medicine. There are so many things that you can honestly get paralyzed in tho in a thought, cycle. And so having to when all, when everyone's having a tornado of thoughts and there's four tornadoes in the room, eventually it's gonna turn into a big cluster.
And it happens. And again, it is having somebody in the room to pull us all out of that is important. So that's where a hierarchy can be great. And it's also, in other specialties hierarchy be crappy 'cause of that as well. It's that gentle balance in a way.
Speaker: Probably one of the greatest pieces of advice that I think you just offered to our third, our rising third years listening to this, is to not take it personally.
Speaker 2: It's not,
Speaker: Especially when things are going sideways to the wind and people are running around.
Trust me. Yeah. No, nobody is trying to say anything to you. Yeah. You are in the midst of the [00:25:00] firestorm and you are just trying to get stuff done. And I do agree with you. Again, my dad was a general surgeon, so I feel like I'm allowed to say this. General surgeons are just the way they are.
God bless 'em and I'm glad they are, but we used to. They used to. And they we're, and we're glad they are. They used to say at Parkland where I trained that the worst residents in the building, like in terms of being like the hard people were the general surgeons and the OB women.
Yeah. The medical students were terrified of us. But and we were, that was a tough program. But I agree with you that at no point in time are you ever. You are having a day and you are running and there is a medical student there, and you say, you do this. Yeah. That's not me being uncourteous to you.
That's me going, I've gotta get this done and I need you to do this. And we just need to keep our focus. And I think that's really good to know that in certain specialties you're probably going to encounter that. But I love how the tornadoes in the room, were all, there's four tornadoes with four different thought processes and somebody's gotta be the conductor to say, [00:26:00] all right.
Everybody's got this idea, but this is what we're doing today. There's, there is a final comment and that's the running joke, that poop run poop rolls uphill. When you're a third medical student, it's you really don't ever have to worry about anything. 'cause there's always somebody smarter than you in the building.
Yes. That can tell you this needs to happen. And it does. It just, it goes up and up and up. But that's okay because I also think as a third year medical student, that gives you some. I don't wanna say license, but it gives you some respite in knowing If I don't know it, that's cool. I just gotta know to go ask somebody else.
Yes. Yes. And I think as long as you keep that clearly in mind, right?
Speaker 2: Yes. My favorite saying that I would say at least three times a day in, in third year was, I don't know. I have no idea. And that's, and again, it's okay as a third year, you're not supposed to. Yes. If you did, why are you a third year medical student?
So I think that, you're exactly right. It's like we do have a kind of a license to just what is it? What is a sand sandbox? Sandbox it, feel it out. You obviously, you're not gonna go perform surgery on [00:27:00] somebody, obviously not, but you can dilly dally and okay, what would.
What would this kind of plan look like? Or what this kind of plan look like, and what are some things I'm not thinking of? That was another question I asked often was like, I think this is this, however, what am I missing here? Because you're guaranteed to be missing something. And that's, again, that's the nature of third year.
But yeah, no it's yeah.
Speaker: I hope you keep that, that one thing that you just said, that, what am I missing here? If there is one tactic that's gonna keep you from anchoring to a diagnosis, not looking at the big picture. It's the idea that I know what this patient has and not considering. It's like what's in this picture that I haven't considered.
I cannot tell you how much that's going to save you in your career. Yeah, just that the ability to step back and question yourself about. Am I looking at this whole picture? Is there something I haven't considered? Please don't ever lose that. 'cause that's power. That's, that is awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: So obviously you had guys that were on [00:28:00] your teams, you had male medical students that were running around as well. Do you feel like they had a different experience or did you feel like maybe some of those interactions might have been a bit of a challenge in your third year as well?
Speaker 2: So I would say that, I'd say our experiences are different for sure. There are definitely times where it, whether it's interaction with patients, whether it's interaction with other staff in the medical team or even like in certain specialties, it's different. It, being in the deep south where, there is definitely a blend of how women should act and how men should act. And that doesn't escape, medicine either. We're not in this kind of bubble. There are definitely times where in terms of patients, I purposely, instead of saying I'm a medical student, I would say I'm a student physician.
Because every patient is going to think that, oh, because I'm a woman, that I'm a nurse, right? No hate to my nurses. I love them. I do, but I'm, I cannot do what nurses do. And the same way of I, when it came to certain [00:29:00] specialties that were more male dominated than others, there were definitely like times where I felt like I needed to speak up more and be more.
More, I guess flat in a way. And I wouldn't even say flat, I think I'm just more like upfront with it. So like for example, neurology at South was very male dominated. And there were definitely times where. Maybe I felt like a little not heard or something, but as soon as I dialed it up for a second, it was like, I think we should do this.
And again, like acting like a man, and I was just like, yeah. I was like X, Y, and Z, just put it out there. There's a, I think that women tend to. Keep to keep our thoughts to ourselves when we are uncomfortable, and that is a mistake.
I think that in any male dominated thing, there is a certain level of like uncomfortableness that all women will feel.
Maybe that's 1%, maybe it's 99%, but there is an element of uncomfortableness that men don't experience when they're in that kind of field. The only time I'd say that's an exception is in ob gyn, I know that I got a better education on my ob gyn rotation than every single one of my male students or male like peers.
Because women, because of where we live and how the [00:30:00] world is right now, women are, don't want men as often as they used to a part of their, like reproductive health. Whether that is, having a male student in the room as they're giving birth, which is a very like. To lack of a better word, it's a very traumatic event for some women.
And having a man in there that already would've made them uncomfortable, just makes that worse. Yeah, and that's not their fault. They can't help that they're a man. As much as I can't help that I'm a woman. But I think that, there was a give and take throughout medical school of what is something that I'm gonna have to beef up now because I'm a woman?
And what are some things that my, my male counterparts are gonna miss out on because they're a man. I will say, all that being said, I think my school was phenomenal at being very like impartial. Like I, I will sing SAS praise for that. Not only that, I think my class specifically is 62% female. And we have women going into all the different specialties. I think that. a way we're trailblazing, but also too we've been, [00:31:00] like the culture here is, has been built to have, like women in leadership. They're like all of my role models now as like doctors are women.
And being able to see what they do and how they interact with the world has shaped me for sure. And I'm sure that, men probably feel the same way about, their counterparts and their mentors. But I know that I specifically sought out female doctors and female staff members who I thought were exemplary.
And I tried to learn from them, my my go-to like, I think. I think two of my letter writers for residency were like my mentor for family medicine, Dr. Kleger. She's great. And l ob GYN she's my like, clerkship coordinator Dr.
Holiday. And she was a force. And so being able to see these women and like even my like health literacy project that I was doing, my mentor was Dr. Tischer up in Huntsville. [00:32:00] And, having all these women who have done great and cool and great and wild things, being able to be like, yeah, Natalie, go for it.
You got this. Having that, again, circling all the way back to the beginning, it's all about, having those people behind you. And I hope that. Women in medicine have that community that I was seeking to build in myself. And like I, that started early with you being like one of the first like female mentors that I had and still do to this day.
And I think that as women, it's all about having a tribe. We all have to have that community. We all have to it's, it, as much as we should be impartial to the sexes and yada whoop d woo. I do think that women. Are magnificent creatures individually, but we are absolute force to be reckoned with when we're all conglomerate together and build off of each other.
And especially in medicine, you can see cool things just blossoming from that. And I like to think that I'm a product of that as well.
Speaker: you are not just a product, you are a leader. You [00:33:00] are. Creating and the what I really just, I'm in awe, just what you just said, like that is something I hope every single person who listens to this podcast goes back and listens to that a few more times because that's beyond wisdom.
That's just. That makes me, I told you so proud. Just, I'm so grateful to have been a part of your journey and to see where you're continuing to go. Yeah. But what you are part of creating and the community you are creating, especially being a woman physician, I. You're gonna help so many people and not just patients.
You're gonna help a lot of other doctors and a lot of other people in healthcare as well. Yeah. I think what you've done and just as a me and that's something that also too I wanna comment on this before we close, that you didn't wait till you became a doctor to help people. You started helping people as a.
As a college student, as a medical [00:34:00] student, yeah. You are already serving people. And I think the ability to learn how to do that, especially when we come up against conflict on a daily basis, which is everywhere in medicine, you never lose your compass. You never lose your why. And your circle of people that you are going to bless is just going to continue to grow.
So I really appreciate you being here on the podcast. I, yeah, absolutely. I'm just, again I'm in awe of what you are doing and what you have become. How's married life? I know you guys are kinda living apart right now,
Speaker 2: yeah. No, it's great. I like we just signed a lease on a house in Huntsville and so it's all getting real now and and yeah, I should have gotten married sooner, but you know what, who was gonna, how's that gonna work?
It wasn't so
Speaker: You guys have proven, it's having to be two professionals, having to be a part. Yeah. But look what you guys have been able to do and it's just beautiful. And I have to say, it's like Rachel, I just. So my daughter was the efficient at this wedding and [00:35:00] just said it was the most beautiful experience to be part of that.
And it was an army part of that for both of you. Oh yeah, but I think it is just it's a testament to it, your ability to. See how you wanna structure your life to see what your goals are and to just to continue to create a career that's gonna really help a lot of people. So I do have one quick favor before I let you go.
Yeah. What's up? After you finish your intern year, will you come back on the podcast? Oh, for sure. You, all
Speaker 2: you have to do is just text me. I'll come back here. It's fine.
Speaker: Cool. I love it because I feel like you've had so much wisdom to share and I think that learning curve is just going to. Go almost vertical as you hit this year, and I think you're gonna have even more wisdom to share with our listeners after finishing this intern year, but really appreciate you being here.
Thank you so much for your time. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. A link in the show notes if people want to find out about your programs, find out about South. I was also gonna put some of your publications on there as [00:36:00] well, so people can chase you down that way too. Sounds good. So thank you so much.
Thank you for all our listeners to being part of the scalpel and so tonight I hope you have a great evening and we will see you next time. Until then, be at peace